katrina2017
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What happens to poor sleepers who aren’t sleep trained?
- Thread starter ebveloz
- Start date
lookintochat
New member
cindyfernandez
New member
@katrina2017 It's been linked elsewhere in the thread
@ebveloz Anecdote:
My oldest was a terrible sleeper. When he was young we resorted to unsafe cosleeping because we literally couldn't do anything else. Then we tried sleep training for a while. It was rough, it took hours for him to fall asleep, but sometimes it would work for a bit. But then he'd get sick or we'd visit grandma and he'd regress. At least starting at 16 months he always slept through the night. Around 18 months his ability to climb out of the crib meant sleep training was over. We spent every night until he was 3 sitting next to his big boy bed holding his hand while he fell asleep. Still took hours. Around age 3 we hit upon the correct bribe to get him to go to sleep on his own (10 extra minutes of screen time). He's 10 now and he still stays up late (~10:00) and it still takes him forever to fall asleep. But, he's also autistic. And his dad is one of those insane people who only wants like 5 hours of sleep per night so maybe there's a genetic component.
Anyway, with his younger sister we said "fuck sleep training, not trying that again, do what's easy" and walked, nursed, or whatevered her to sleep every night. Age 18 months got her a futon to sleep on next to our bed so it was easier to nurse her and put her back down. She slept like a champ for the first 6 months, then started waking up every 1-3 hours until she was 2 and we weaned her. She went to bed on her own, on time, and slept all night after that.
She's 6 now, neurotypical, so probably the differences had more to do with brain chemistry than anything else.
My oldest was a terrible sleeper. When he was young we resorted to unsafe cosleeping because we literally couldn't do anything else. Then we tried sleep training for a while. It was rough, it took hours for him to fall asleep, but sometimes it would work for a bit. But then he'd get sick or we'd visit grandma and he'd regress. At least starting at 16 months he always slept through the night. Around 18 months his ability to climb out of the crib meant sleep training was over. We spent every night until he was 3 sitting next to his big boy bed holding his hand while he fell asleep. Still took hours. Around age 3 we hit upon the correct bribe to get him to go to sleep on his own (10 extra minutes of screen time). He's 10 now and he still stays up late (~10:00) and it still takes him forever to fall asleep. But, he's also autistic. And his dad is one of those insane people who only wants like 5 hours of sleep per night so maybe there's a genetic component.
Anyway, with his younger sister we said "fuck sleep training, not trying that again, do what's easy" and walked, nursed, or whatevered her to sleep every night. Age 18 months got her a futon to sleep on next to our bed so it was easier to nurse her and put her back down. She slept like a champ for the first 6 months, then started waking up every 1-3 hours until she was 2 and we weaned her. She went to bed on her own, on time, and slept all night after that.
She's 6 now, neurotypical, so probably the differences had more to do with brain chemistry than anything else.
goodnews84
New member
@ggirl1986 My oldest (4 years old) is exactly like your oldest! She is autistic (high functioning). I always hope that as she gets older her sleep will improve, but as you said, it’s probably more to do with brain chemistry. Maybe I’ll stop hoping and lean into the fact she’s not wired to be a sleeper…
@goodnews84 I know it’s off subject a bit but have you heard of Mary Ruth’s nighttime vitamin?? It’s a liquid of magnesium/multivitamins and parents are swearing by it helping their autistic children sleep. My husband and I take it ( we have a newborn) and it helps us fall asleep and go back to sleep easier when we wake-up in the middle of the night. Might be something to look into!
goodnews84
New member
@goodnews84 On the plus side, I go to bed at 9 and just say "goodnight dude, don't read too late" and he puts himself to bed around 10.
katrina2017
New member
@ggirl1986 Glad to see neurodivergency mentioned here! We’re still in the thick of it all but I originally chalked up my 18 month “poor sleeper” as simply being a highly sensitive child who came into this world through a traumatic birth. He’s so sensitive that he goes from zero to one hundred [crying, trying to communicate needs] in a matter of seconds and will throw up from stress. His temperament is not a match for sleep training. We also ruled out any potential medical reasons and found nothing.
While I still feel his little nervous system is likely rattled from the birth experience and still a highly sensitive child, we learned he will likely have ADHD as my husband and I were literally just diagnosed. He’s a HUGE sensory seeker (which is why my husband and I got assessed… it was like looking in the mirror lol)… especially right before bed. We found that fulfilling his sensory needs and including them during his bedtime routine has made nursing to sleep somewhat possible, but overall much easier. Most of the time he still needs vigorous bouncing on a yoga ball. Then he’s up every 30 minutes to 2 hours eeeevery night. We nurse back to sleep most wakes and I’ll probably start night weaning soon. It doesn’t guarantee he’ll sleep better but I guess I’m just crossing my fingers at this point since I haven’t connected sleep cycles in over a year. After getting my ADHD diagnosis, I then started wondering if his likely neurodivergent brain had anything to do with his sleeping patterns… boom! I found all sorts of research supporting this idea so here we are lol
This is a good summary (with citations, written by an AuDHD Psychologist) in case anyone is interested: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/autism-adhd-and-sleep?format=amp
While I still feel his little nervous system is likely rattled from the birth experience and still a highly sensitive child, we learned he will likely have ADHD as my husband and I were literally just diagnosed. He’s a HUGE sensory seeker (which is why my husband and I got assessed… it was like looking in the mirror lol)… especially right before bed. We found that fulfilling his sensory needs and including them during his bedtime routine has made nursing to sleep somewhat possible, but overall much easier. Most of the time he still needs vigorous bouncing on a yoga ball. Then he’s up every 30 minutes to 2 hours eeeevery night. We nurse back to sleep most wakes and I’ll probably start night weaning soon. It doesn’t guarantee he’ll sleep better but I guess I’m just crossing my fingers at this point since I haven’t connected sleep cycles in over a year. After getting my ADHD diagnosis, I then started wondering if his likely neurodivergent brain had anything to do with his sleeping patterns… boom! I found all sorts of research supporting this idea so here we are lol
This is a good summary (with citations, written by an AuDHD Psychologist) in case anyone is interested: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/autism-adhd-and-sleep?format=amp
@katrina2017 Night weaning or weaning in general eliminated wakeups for both my kids, fingers crossed for you!
katrina2017
New member
@ggirl1986 Oh good to know - That gives me hope!
@ebveloz So I liked this podcast, which interviewed a researcher which basically asked this same thing: What happens to babies who aren't sleep trained or for whom sleep training doesn't work:
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...d=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwj4nb658ID9AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQeQ
Sorry for the monster link. You could just follow the jump to the actual researcher and her work if you don't want to listen to a podcast.
Anecdotally/my experience: - I have three children, the eldest of whom is 14. I didn't use extinction methods with any of them. I do not consider them to be bad sleepers, I consider them to be normal (except maybe the middle one, he never really did longer stretches at all until I night weaned him at 2.5yo) but going by your definition of having parent-led sleep associations, yep, I pretty much fed them to sleep and back to sleep at every wake until they weaned.
I fed my first child on demand including at night until he stopped of his own accord (around 2.5 years), I fed my second on demand including at night until I got pregnant and my husband and I decided we did not want to bedshare with an infant and toddler at once, so I got stricter with myself about bringing him into our bed, which I had generally done for my own comfort/convenience between the ages of 1-2 years. He was 2y3m when I started and 2y6m when the process was complete, I did not follow a method I just kind of made it up - a combination of this "parent training" not letting myself bring him into bed, plus a delay before nursing, plus early unlatching at an earlier and earlier point, plus changing nursing associations to a specific side and avoiding that side. My youngest is currently 17 months and around 1 month ago I decided to try the method that worked with my second child now, despite him being a year younger, since I don't see any benefit of waiting. So far so good, it's slow progress, but that's OK with me.
Going by the anecdotal received wisdom of the AP/anti-sleep-training community, it's normal for babies to wake and feed at night and they will stop this by themselves somewhere between 18 months to 3 years. This was my experience, and that of my friends who did similar (but small sample size). After that, they are totally normal - there's no difference I can see between children sleep trained vs children fed to sleep until self weaning. My eldest has ADHD, but the research evidence suggests ADHD is not caused by parenting but is likely genetic. I have ADHD too, and my ex/his dad has some significant hyperactive traits, so genetics seem likely.
IME the bedtime feed was the last to go, feeding to sleep at the start of the night did not make them keep waking at night once they had got to the point they were naturally sleeping through. And I have stopped and started in my slow sleep training many times, tend to give in as soon as there is any protest, it doesn't make things go backwards as the sleep training literature suggests. Sleep training is based on behaviourism, and I think behaviourism is incredibly flawed, so it never made sense to me to follow it for sleep.
AP theory (honestly, not sure how evidence based this is) suggests that in bedsharing and feeding to sleep, you build security and trust and confidence and the baby/child will simply move on when they are ready. It was important to me for sleep to be a safe and comforting thing, bedtime to be a happy and calm association. I remember my little brother being terrified of bedtime because he was left to cry alone. I didn't want that (I recognise, especially with hindsight, that this is not illustrative of all sleep training!)
Disclaimer: I understand that bedsharing particularly before the age of 4 months carries increased risks in comparison with room sharing on separate surfaces. I'm not suggesting this as a blanket policy, just sharing what I did. You should look into the risks before you bedshare.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...d=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwj4nb658ID9AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQeQ
Sorry for the monster link. You could just follow the jump to the actual researcher and her work if you don't want to listen to a podcast.
Anecdotally/my experience: - I have three children, the eldest of whom is 14. I didn't use extinction methods with any of them. I do not consider them to be bad sleepers, I consider them to be normal (except maybe the middle one, he never really did longer stretches at all until I night weaned him at 2.5yo) but going by your definition of having parent-led sleep associations, yep, I pretty much fed them to sleep and back to sleep at every wake until they weaned.
I fed my first child on demand including at night until he stopped of his own accord (around 2.5 years), I fed my second on demand including at night until I got pregnant and my husband and I decided we did not want to bedshare with an infant and toddler at once, so I got stricter with myself about bringing him into our bed, which I had generally done for my own comfort/convenience between the ages of 1-2 years. He was 2y3m when I started and 2y6m when the process was complete, I did not follow a method I just kind of made it up - a combination of this "parent training" not letting myself bring him into bed, plus a delay before nursing, plus early unlatching at an earlier and earlier point, plus changing nursing associations to a specific side and avoiding that side. My youngest is currently 17 months and around 1 month ago I decided to try the method that worked with my second child now, despite him being a year younger, since I don't see any benefit of waiting. So far so good, it's slow progress, but that's OK with me.
Going by the anecdotal received wisdom of the AP/anti-sleep-training community, it's normal for babies to wake and feed at night and they will stop this by themselves somewhere between 18 months to 3 years. This was my experience, and that of my friends who did similar (but small sample size). After that, they are totally normal - there's no difference I can see between children sleep trained vs children fed to sleep until self weaning. My eldest has ADHD, but the research evidence suggests ADHD is not caused by parenting but is likely genetic. I have ADHD too, and my ex/his dad has some significant hyperactive traits, so genetics seem likely.
IME the bedtime feed was the last to go, feeding to sleep at the start of the night did not make them keep waking at night once they had got to the point they were naturally sleeping through. And I have stopped and started in my slow sleep training many times, tend to give in as soon as there is any protest, it doesn't make things go backwards as the sleep training literature suggests. Sleep training is based on behaviourism, and I think behaviourism is incredibly flawed, so it never made sense to me to follow it for sleep.
AP theory (honestly, not sure how evidence based this is) suggests that in bedsharing and feeding to sleep, you build security and trust and confidence and the baby/child will simply move on when they are ready. It was important to me for sleep to be a safe and comforting thing, bedtime to be a happy and calm association. I remember my little brother being terrified of bedtime because he was left to cry alone. I didn't want that (I recognise, especially with hindsight, that this is not illustrative of all sleep training!)
Disclaimer: I understand that bedsharing particularly before the age of 4 months carries increased risks in comparison with room sharing on separate surfaces. I'm not suggesting this as a blanket policy, just sharing what I did. You should look into the risks before you bedshare.
andybrooks
New member
@ebveloz Never sleep trained. Nursed to sleep for all naps and bed time sleep until just after three. Nursed over night till 2y9m, woke many times over night. Never slept in a crib.
One day when he was 2y9m he stopped nursing overnight. Just stopped. I had decided to start weaning night nursing if he was still doing it at three, but he just stopped on his own. Then stopped nursing during the day unless sick. Then stopped nursing to sleep on a regular basis (still does every now and hen if super tired and unregulated). Stopped needing me to sleep and will gladly accept dad for bedtime and for wake ups over nights (and only wakes if he has to pee or is sick). It just happened. We tried every now ms then and it was freaking drama and we didn’t have it in us to fight over sleep. So we’d wait months and try again. At 3y4m he was super excited about bed time with dad all of a sudden and now he’d want dad every day if he were available so we take turns.
So now he’s the easiest kid, sleep wise, in our friend group (eight families). By far. All the others, who slept on their own over night in their cribs and needed little to no adult input to sleep are currently struggling with two hour bedtimes, delay tactics, refusing to sleep, crying, everything that makes bedtime hard.
My take away from parenting my kid and seeing others make their choices around sleep was that sleep changes, constantly, no matter what the adults do.
One day when he was 2y9m he stopped nursing overnight. Just stopped. I had decided to start weaning night nursing if he was still doing it at three, but he just stopped on his own. Then stopped nursing during the day unless sick. Then stopped nursing to sleep on a regular basis (still does every now and hen if super tired and unregulated). Stopped needing me to sleep and will gladly accept dad for bedtime and for wake ups over nights (and only wakes if he has to pee or is sick). It just happened. We tried every now ms then and it was freaking drama and we didn’t have it in us to fight over sleep. So we’d wait months and try again. At 3y4m he was super excited about bed time with dad all of a sudden and now he’d want dad every day if he were available so we take turns.
So now he’s the easiest kid, sleep wise, in our friend group (eight families). By far. All the others, who slept on their own over night in their cribs and needed little to no adult input to sleep are currently struggling with two hour bedtimes, delay tactics, refusing to sleep, crying, everything that makes bedtime hard.
My take away from parenting my kid and seeing others make their choices around sleep was that sleep changes, constantly, no matter what the adults do.
dwhite081705
New member
@ebveloz My first poor sleeper began sleeping through the night at the age of 2. She is turning 5 and still needs to snuggle at some point through the night. She is pretty high strung and “high needs” I guess you would say. She could probably start out in her own bed, but she would come in halfway through the night, so she’s just in our bed most nights because it’s less disruptive.
My second poor sleeper is on the other side of me, he’s turning 2 and has started to sleep like 6 hour stretches some nights so that’s good. He takes his nap independently but he contact napped until 15 months.
The good things is that they both seem to have an awareness of when they are tired, will say they are ready for bed for instance, they fall asleep quickly, and bedtime is never a fight. The cons are of course they aren’t in their own rooms. But I also love the cuddles and know it won’t last forever. It works for us. I love hearing them breathe at night and having them close.
My second poor sleeper is on the other side of me, he’s turning 2 and has started to sleep like 6 hour stretches some nights so that’s good. He takes his nap independently but he contact napped until 15 months.
The good things is that they both seem to have an awareness of when they are tired, will say they are ready for bed for instance, they fall asleep quickly, and bedtime is never a fight. The cons are of course they aren’t in their own rooms. But I also love the cuddles and know it won’t last forever. It works for us. I love hearing them breathe at night and having them close.
godslittlelin
New member
@ebveloz If anyone has research into this, I would absolutely love to see it because I've looked and hadn't been able to find anything back when my bad sleeper was younger.
As such, I have two anecdotes. The first: my partner's little sister, who was a bad sleeper and sleep trained. She would wake up multiple times at night up to the age of around 6. She would be left alone at night when she'd wake up, and would cry to the point of throwing up at least once a night. At around 6 or 7 she was able to read to get herself to sleep when going to bed and that appeared to also help her with the night wakes. From what I know, she's a solid sleeper now at 14 and has been since reading to bed started. Her younger brother started sleeping through the night at around 3,and would also wake up a lot although he didn't get so upset as to throw up.
My other example is my son. He was a much, much worse sleeper than my partner's siblings. He literally woke up every 30-60 minutes for the first 2.5 years of his life. At that age, I night weaned him and while he remains a restless sleeper even now, he was waking up maybe twice after night weaning. At 3 he started sleeping through the night without any issues, unless he is ill or has a nightmare.
I am guessing you are being down voted because sleep training is a very controversial and emotionally fuelled subject. But since there is no research in this topic, the subjective experiences are really interesting to read through. Bad sleepers are an interesting bunch and I wish there was more research going into them.
As such, I have two anecdotes. The first: my partner's little sister, who was a bad sleeper and sleep trained. She would wake up multiple times at night up to the age of around 6. She would be left alone at night when she'd wake up, and would cry to the point of throwing up at least once a night. At around 6 or 7 she was able to read to get herself to sleep when going to bed and that appeared to also help her with the night wakes. From what I know, she's a solid sleeper now at 14 and has been since reading to bed started. Her younger brother started sleeping through the night at around 3,and would also wake up a lot although he didn't get so upset as to throw up.
My other example is my son. He was a much, much worse sleeper than my partner's siblings. He literally woke up every 30-60 minutes for the first 2.5 years of his life. At that age, I night weaned him and while he remains a restless sleeper even now, he was waking up maybe twice after night weaning. At 3 he started sleeping through the night without any issues, unless he is ill or has a nightmare.
I am guessing you are being down voted because sleep training is a very controversial and emotionally fuelled subject. But since there is no research in this topic, the subjective experiences are really interesting to read through. Bad sleepers are an interesting bunch and I wish there was more research going into them.
@godslittlelin
Absolutely horrible. I cannot believe people will leave their babies/infants to do this, just because they class it as "sleep training".
She would be left alone at night when she'd wake up, and would cry to the point of throwing up at least once a night
Absolutely horrible. I cannot believe people will leave their babies/infants to do this, just because they class it as "sleep training".
@ebveloz Possums is more scientific than most resources on infant sleep. There’s not really any evidence that feeding, nursing, rocking etc to sleep or responsive parenting at nighttime results in babies which sleep less in infancy, much less in adulthood.
Anecdote about my own family: I wasn’t sleep trained and was rocked and nursed to sleep until around 12 months. In my crib I slept 12 hours overnight without crying from a young age and was an obsessive thumb sucker (which ruined my teeth and palate eventually). My parents always let me climb into their bed if I woke up when I was out of the crib, but I grew out of that by age 5 or 6. I’m still an easy, relaxed sleeper and like a lot of sleep. If no one wakes me up (which between kid and dogs is never) I will go 10 hours without moving. The only time I’ve has mild insomnia in 35 years is when I was pregnant.
My husband was raised with much more regimented rules around sleep and left in his crib to CIO at least some of the time. My MIL remembers all her babies waking and crying many times a night. He remembers always fighting naps and sleep. He wasn’t allowed to ask for things or go into his parent’s room when he woke at night. He had terrible insomnia as a child and would be awake and terrified for hours almost every night. I don’t think it’s cause and effect necessarily but as an adult he’s still a poor sleeper with nighttime anxiety and insomnia who wakes a ton.
My daughter takes after him because she’s a terrible napper and fights daytime sleep, and wakes a lot crying at night for no reason we can figure out (no health problems). She refuses to use a pacifier or suck thumb or fingers and stopped nursing to sleep on her own around 10 months. I respond to her every time she cries. I’ve tried ‘gentle’ methods like waiting 5 minutes to see if she resettles, pick up put down, etc and she escalates into full blown hysterics and banging her head hard, really quickly. So I’m just waiting for her to grow out of needing help getting back to sleep at night. I’m really glad I don’t have to worry about thumb sucking ruining her teeth as well
Anecdote about my own family: I wasn’t sleep trained and was rocked and nursed to sleep until around 12 months. In my crib I slept 12 hours overnight without crying from a young age and was an obsessive thumb sucker (which ruined my teeth and palate eventually). My parents always let me climb into their bed if I woke up when I was out of the crib, but I grew out of that by age 5 or 6. I’m still an easy, relaxed sleeper and like a lot of sleep. If no one wakes me up (which between kid and dogs is never) I will go 10 hours without moving. The only time I’ve has mild insomnia in 35 years is when I was pregnant.
My husband was raised with much more regimented rules around sleep and left in his crib to CIO at least some of the time. My MIL remembers all her babies waking and crying many times a night. He remembers always fighting naps and sleep. He wasn’t allowed to ask for things or go into his parent’s room when he woke at night. He had terrible insomnia as a child and would be awake and terrified for hours almost every night. I don’t think it’s cause and effect necessarily but as an adult he’s still a poor sleeper with nighttime anxiety and insomnia who wakes a ton.
My daughter takes after him because she’s a terrible napper and fights daytime sleep, and wakes a lot crying at night for no reason we can figure out (no health problems). She refuses to use a pacifier or suck thumb or fingers and stopped nursing to sleep on her own around 10 months. I respond to her every time she cries. I’ve tried ‘gentle’ methods like waiting 5 minutes to see if she resettles, pick up put down, etc and she escalates into full blown hysterics and banging her head hard, really quickly. So I’m just waiting for her to grow out of needing help getting back to sleep at night. I’m really glad I don’t have to worry about thumb sucking ruining her teeth as well
@heloise23 My daughter was very similar! At 4 she still wakes up crying sometimes for no identifiable reason. But I responded every time when she was a baby and we followed safe bedsharing for a while so I could sleep. Eventually she started sleeping through in her own bed and room. Rarely she’ll come into my bed ant night or need help going pee, but she’s figuring it out despite the fact that I “taught her bad habits”
truckerdan
New member
@ebveloz In my experience, with my friends, a lot depends on the attachment. My niece is 11 and still doesn't sleep through the night, in her own space. She sleeps in her parents's room, sometimes cosleeping. Her relationship with her parents is filled with "pranks" on each other, yelling, and other really toxic behaviors. I have seen plenty of other friends, many from countries in Asia, who follow more attachment parenting. Their kids eventually learn how to sleep through the night about the same as my sleep trained baby. It just took longer, and they had to be more flexible with a lot of schedule-oriented pieces of life. I really do think a lot, sleep training or not sleep training, has to do with providing your child the fulfillment for their needs during the day - food, stimulation, exercise, love/support/attachment, etc. My friends and I, with varying levels of sleep training or lack there of, all lament how illness or particularly picky eating can completely torpedo an otherwise great sleeper's night.
sigmachi1855
New member
@ebveloz Our three year old was never sleep trained (there were attempts lol). He sleeps through the night as long as he’s in bed with me. This started around 2.5ish. Before that there were a lot of wakings.
He’s anxious. He has nightmares. He’s just a guy who needs to be with his tribe at night.
When we were trying to have him sleep in his own room he would wake up and become hysterical approximately half the nights. It honestly felt traumatic for him.
He’s anxious. He has nightmares. He’s just a guy who needs to be with his tribe at night.
When we were trying to have him sleep in his own room he would wake up and become hysterical approximately half the nights. It honestly felt traumatic for him.
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