Help for behavior at wits end

[eian11]

A literal cry for help

I have two sons I’m not sure what I am doing wrong I am a stay at home mom (I do free lance but only during nap time not while they are up)

my Almost 3 stomps at me defiantly says ”no you do it” whenever I ask him please pick up your toys or please close the door behind said toy room he climbs counters swings on fridge door yells and screams at me hits me stand and dance on chair will not turn to face table when eating and get his arm stuck in the chair holes he is constantly challenge me in general just won’t listen

My 4 year old stomps challenges me (newer behavior sees his brother does it ) defies me and then when I say ok no toys for a time or we won’t go to x y z today he keeps saying that he will and it’s quite frustrating to clarify he’s saying “yea right watch me still get it / do it “

I have regular schedules and I don’t know what’s going on I can’t even get a break because I I feel I can’t leave them alone even with my own mother because of their behavior (she’s a bit older and takes care of her own mother so I don’t want to burden or stress her read on to see why)

They are constantly destroying everything we have tables banging windows my 4 year old wrote in his room wall the other day you name it I’m always here if I’m cooking and they are playing this is when this happens they are often saying potty words like “I’m gonna put you in the toilet and poop on you” they call each other a “ca ca” where are they getting this from they are not in daycare (older one was in preschool briefly but started picking up crazy behavior so I pulled him out 6 months ago ) I really don’t understand where this is coming from they kick mock me mock each other sometimes spit and a lot more things that just really destructive, confusing and concerning I’m really at my wits end here what can I do ???

Even when I try to seek solace in the kitchen for a moment's respite, I can't let my guard down. A simple trip to grab a glass of water turns into a disaster waiting to happen, with one of them teetering on the edge of causing yet another mess. And the worst part? They seem oblivious to the chaos they create. When they see my tears welling up in frustration, they simply dismiss it with a casual "aww, the baby's crying," as if my distress is nothing more than a passing inconvenience. (Again where are they getting this from??) and if this is me a mom in my early 30s not sure my 67 year old mom who takes care of her mom can handle it and even if she could (she’s pretty fit and energetic) I would not willingly put any one through this..

I've read countless parenting books, scoured the internet for advice, and even attempted various strategies, but nothing seems to penetrate their defiant facade. Our days are filled with routines and fun, yet their behavior remains as unpredictable as ever. I've reached my breaking point, drowning in a sea of conflicting advice and despair.

They use to have (limited and supervised ) screen time things like miss Rachel Daniel the tiger counting and abc monster trucks but I wasn’t sure if this was causing behavioral issues so I’ve since removed tv and Alexa we literally have no screen time at all the behavior did not improve (or get worse either ) they are playing more together so I guess that’s good but all else remains. There is a lot more I missed dad is present but works a lot we have breakfast together Sunday mornings and dinner whenever he’s home he’s out to work 6 am to -8pm (I always have dinner with them ) his off days we have family fun day we are all together and dad is on the same page as parenting (we’ve tried gentle and Joe frost method ) but agrees they are getting out of control. Discipline methods have included talking it out, time out, removal or toy and or perk (the perk thing I don’t really like to do bc I feel bad if one behaves a bit better then he can’t go bc his brother can’t and I have no local help besides mom which I spoke about already and also even if I did I couldn’t put anyone else through this) I’ve tried explaining why said behavior is unacceptable as well.

I don’t know what to do they do go outside a lot we are doing the 1000 hour outside challenge so I don’t think is that routines are breakfast lunch nap snack dinner bed at the same time everyday. when I tell them to stop something they laugh at me maybe stop briefly then do it again when I tell one to not do something there goes the other one right behind him to do the same thing I said please don’t do (things like hitting pushing screaming kicking yelling ripping books )

Please, if anyone has specific recommendations for parenting resources or classes, I'm all ears. I've tried everything I can think of, but I'm running out of options. please be very specific I have a lot in my plate done so much research already so many conflicting advice already. It feels like I'm fighting a losing battle, and I don't know how much longer I can hold on.

 

[rachelanne84]

@eian11 I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong - they’re just preschoolers testing boundaries like preschoolers do. They’ve figured out that being defiant makes you mad, so they’re going to keep doing it to get a reaction.

There’s a free course from Yale called ABCs of parenting that really helped me with this stage. But otherwise just keep holding your boundaries.

 

[eian11]

@rachelanne84 Ok thank you I’ll check it out not sure which parenting method I should use moving forward does it mention one in the course ?

 

[joseph92]

@eian11 It sounds like you've been researching a lot of parenting methods. So it sounds like you could read between the lines on the things you should not do, like hitting them, excessive punishments, screaming at them, etc. But beyond that I worry you may be relying too heavily on them.

If you are finding you can't handle your kids because a parenting method is holding you back, I think that's more disruptive than helpful at this point. I understand if you came from an abusive household in some way, why you may want to try to stick to one particular method to give yourself a guideline, but if that's not your concern and you feel mentally healthy enough, I suggest you do more reading between the lines on the methods and do what feels correct. They say parents understand their kids the best, and except for some really terrible people, it's generally true.

I would suggest to keep learning of course but set up your own parenting method and tweak it however you need to as your kids go through different stages. You can always use what is good from other methods and drop what doesn't work.

 

[eian11]

@joseph92 Yes I don’t want yelling and definitely no hitting I know those behaviors affect children in such a negative way there are so much research especially during this super delicate formative years and even if older that can make them violent depressed and God knows what else I guess I want a parenting method for consistency sake routine works well especially for littles so with a set parenting method the expectation is the same making up my own or going with the flow is much more than I can handle at the moment I just need a set of clear guidelines

 

[joseph92]

@eian11 I don't know if you will find what you're looking for, but I hope you do. I found such inconsistencies in them, and knowing that even psychologists, those that should have all the answers, have different theories on child development, I decided I had to trust myself with the knowledge I had gained, and we then thrived (with a lot of hard work).

I think your main issue is very simple - listening to mom, no back talk. Just listening. How you get there isn't simple. It depends on their motivations, their ability to learn, and whatever you choose, your consistency. If a method gets you there, great. I just couldn't find one that covered my child's particular inclinations and took into consideration her particular mental health. She's 12 now, so it's been awhile, but I won't ever forget how bad it got. Now I know she's got ADHD, and her mind was spinning out of control even back then. Her 3 hour tantrums were a cry for help, as much as she hurt me during them. We are happy and healthy today, though, and I hope you may also get through this unscathed.

 

[eian11]

@joseph92 That makes sense so many different methods I’m glad you were able to piece it together after all we are our children’s parents for a reason you are a great mom thank you so much for all your words of wisdom it’s one thing being defiant (yes it’s tough and it hurts ) but the spitting hitting kicking and nonsensical behavior is beyond painful I pray I find something soon or just a way to get them to behave I’m all for children being children as long as they don’t hurt themselves and others I’m all in but these behaviors are a disturbance to themselves and others they are not respectful and it’s a big no no the other day the little one pushed a child on the playground (the highest of the play space ) the horror if they would have fell and he hit another child for calling him a baby I put him on time out twice and made him apologize but still the horror

 

[comradez]

@eian11 My sons therapist recommend 123 magic when he was around 4-5 and defiant. It really helped soooo much and even now at almost 11 all I have to do is start counting and he gets moving. Basically you give them 3 chances to correct their behavior and stop what they are doing. You tell them I’m going to count to three and if you don’t do this then here is the consequence. You MUST remain calm and not go back and forth with them. It takes about a week but after a week they realize oh me screaming doesn’t phase mom anymore and if I choose not to do it there’s always a consequence.

 

[nickel]

@comradez Counting works amazing for us. "Ok, I will count to three, and if you have not done this, then I will do it/ make you do it." I was a teacher before kids, so I think I learned a lot of patience and being calm with that. Don't get worked up, just state what is going to happen as a fact.

 

[eian11]

@nickel Thanks will try this one I’ve been hesitant with the counting it’s just God forbid they are in a dangerous situation think running towards street or in a parking lot I need them to react right away not until I count down how would you handle something like that ?

 

[joseph92]

@eian11 But, to be devils advocate, what happens when you tell them what to do/don't do the first time right now? I'm guessing it's some level of noncompliance. If counting works on any level, you're already on your way to a better situation. And I would also argue that counting trains them to listen to your voice the first time. They never know how fast you're going to count, so after awhile they will start listening at 1.

 

[eian11]

@joseph92 This is so true you are absolutely correct if they are not listening now then what do I have to lose thank you

 

[rudytoot]

@nickel What does “make you do it” entail?

 

[comradez]

@rudytoot I mean at 3 years old you can easily carry a kid over to the pile of toys and literally take their little hands and scoop the toys up with them. Or you can pick them up and put their shoes on while they are kicking and screaming etc. I found that giving them two silly options can be effective too “you can hop to the toy bin to put your toys away or you can waddle like a penguin which would you like?”

 

[eian11]

@comradez I like this a lot please elaborate on said consequences please I need all the help I can get also how would this method work in times of emergency (think running into a busy street or parking lot ) my almost 3 year old will wriggle out my hand and run off I’ve avoided the counting method bc they don’t always have 3 or even one second to respond other than that I think this method is fantastic how would you deal with something like that ?

 

[comradez]

@eian11 The cars things is different. That is a safety issue and not a time where counting to 3 would be effective or safe. I would practice over and over safe parking lot and street behavior but that’s a long term solution. The short term would be “you hold my hand or you will be strapped into the stroller or have a leash backpack or I will pick you up and carry you etc. or you run off and we are going home.” But you HAVE to follow through with that consequence. It can’t be them crying promising they won’t do it again. Whatever consequence you gave you have to follow through. But day to day it looked like this for us “Tommy it’s time to clean up.” Tommy screams NO! I don’t want to! “ I understand you don’t want too but it’s time to clean. I will give you 3 tries and if you don’t clean by the third then you will lose tablet/tv/these toys time this afternoon. Tommy screams no again. You say “that’s 1” Tommy keeps screaming no and you say “that’s 2”. He keeps going and you get to 3 “you may not have tablet time this afternoon.” The magic part is following through and after about a week all you’ll have to say is “that’s 1.” And they get up and moving because they know mommy isn’t messing around and there will be consequences.

 

[eian11]

@comradez I love this!!!! The toy example is wonderful yes so they cry and I feel bad and give in and say next time … so now they might feel they can toy with me I just don’t want them to cry or feel hurt it feels like I’m neglecting them I can remove a toy then question about the parking lot : street thing I can say if you run off we will leave and then do but the older one is more well behaved in these outdoor scenarios if we gotta leave due to the younger one I don’t want that to cause resentment with the older one being that he was behaving how can I manage this supposing we are going to playground or zoo or something and before they go in then he runs off

 

[tjd]

@eian11 Check out pedsdoctalk, she literally has a reel about boundary setting mistakes put out today! It’s really hard to stay firm in setting boundaries, but she does a good job by providing examples you can use and not just chastising parents (ie. you’re causing them trauma!!)

My 4.5 yo daughter hates when I use my firm voice, and she says things like “don’t be mean mommy” and yes it breaks my heart but what she doesn’t realize is how NOT mean being firm is. The child doesn’t know what mean is but what she does know is I don’t budge.

This age 2-4 is really, really, really hard. Kids are built to push boundaries and explore what with be their parents’ limits. Don’t take what they say personally. Seriously. My daughter calls me a “bad guy”, “I’m not invited to her party” one of her friends screamed at their mom that she hated her. Potty talk is SOOOO normal at 4. She is always talking about how she will pee on us, or on the ground but she won’t. We remind her to use a kind tone, or kind words, or if she’s going to talk about poop maybe she needs to go to the bathroom and stop playing, is that what she wants?

This is a tough time but it’s normal and it’s shitty. This is what people talk about when they say toddlers are the worse little jerks. No amount of gentle parenting is going to avoid the annoying behavior but you can learn to break it down bit by bit.

 

[eian11]

@tjd I love this thank you so much I will check it out thanks so much they do often say they will poo and pee on each other but don’t actually thanks so much for the reassurance

 

[lawer]

@eian11 I'm sorry, you sound exhausted. I don't know if this will work for you, but it has worked really well for my 5 year old who questions authorities a lot.

We have a board with a button. And if the button makes it to the end he wins a toy or book he really wants. Whenever he does a good thing, the button moves forward, and if he does something bad, even after being told not to, the button moves back. Most of the time It's enough for me to say "stop it or I have to move back the button".

Good luck!