"Cry it out" is not a well-defined term
- Thread starter rockhopper72
- Start date
camillanorigera
New member
@rockhopper72 I think in one of Tracy Cassels' "Evolutionary Parenting Podcast" said that even Holt concluded that he shouldn't have written what he did, because it was literally him and his wife putting down a bunch of things that worked with THEIR kids that others might find useful.
ETA: it's a pity I can't find transcripts but I believe it's in this one
ETA: it's a pity I can't find transcripts but I believe it's in this one
@rockhopper72 I just think it’s funny that people do cite Holt and that quote as a credible source on the safety of CIO
@rockhopper72 I’ve been saying this too! It’s basically the co-sleep vs Bed-share vs surface-share debacle all over again.
@rockhopper72 I agree the terminology is bad.
Extinction doesn't just apply to sleep training. It means changing any behavior by ignoring it. It's the same thing you're doing when you ignore a tantrum in the grocery store over a candy bar. Sleep training, no matter how you do it, is teaching your child that they fall asleep on their own at bedtime. That's why consistency is so important if you choose to do this. Otherwise you're just confusing them and creating extra stress.
I think if you read any of the many modern books on this topic, like Weissbluth (Healthy sleep habits happy child) they don't tell you to leave your baby all night no matter what. Rather, they often advocate extinction or another method AT BED TIME to start. Night weaning is typically separate from sleep training especially for younger babies. Discontinuing night nursing sessions is absolutely not a requirement of sleep training.
I sleep trained using modified extinction at bedtime, but never night weaned purposefully.
I think the biggest issue with this poor terminology on the internet is that people either think there's nothing they can do and are exhausted for years when their children won't sleep because they don't want to "cry it out" or, on the other side of the spectrum, they leave their 4-month-old alone in their crib all night screaming with a dirty diaper because they misunderstand what sleep training actually entails 99% of the time.
Read a book and talk to your doctor, the internet is crazy and will tell you you're a bad parent no matter what you do.
Extinction doesn't just apply to sleep training. It means changing any behavior by ignoring it. It's the same thing you're doing when you ignore a tantrum in the grocery store over a candy bar. Sleep training, no matter how you do it, is teaching your child that they fall asleep on their own at bedtime. That's why consistency is so important if you choose to do this. Otherwise you're just confusing them and creating extra stress.
I think if you read any of the many modern books on this topic, like Weissbluth (Healthy sleep habits happy child) they don't tell you to leave your baby all night no matter what. Rather, they often advocate extinction or another method AT BED TIME to start. Night weaning is typically separate from sleep training especially for younger babies. Discontinuing night nursing sessions is absolutely not a requirement of sleep training.
I sleep trained using modified extinction at bedtime, but never night weaned purposefully.
I think the biggest issue with this poor terminology on the internet is that people either think there's nothing they can do and are exhausted for years when their children won't sleep because they don't want to "cry it out" or, on the other side of the spectrum, they leave their 4-month-old alone in their crib all night screaming with a dirty diaper because they misunderstand what sleep training actually entails 99% of the time.
Read a book and talk to your doctor, the internet is crazy and will tell you you're a bad parent no matter what you do.
the_precious_one
New member
@rockhopper72 I agree that it's important to describe what is meant, not just say CIO - or better yet, use specific terms as you suggested. And I agree that even the term 'sleep training' is not well defined: does it always imply some form of extinction?
I am never sure what to call the approach we used. This is how my second baby's sleep evolved (my first was similar but less smooth). My third had extreme reflux so could not sleep flat on his own until almost a year old - and when he could, he just slept through the night pretty much right away. I usually call what we did 'sleep guiding' instead of 'training', but I'm not sure it's the best term either. Maybe 'giving opportunities to self-settle to sleep' (not self-soothe) is the most accurate.
(Edited for clarity.)
I am never sure what to call the approach we used. This is how my second baby's sleep evolved (my first was similar but less smooth). My third had extreme reflux so could not sleep flat on his own until almost a year old - and when he could, he just slept through the night pretty much right away. I usually call what we did 'sleep guiding' instead of 'training', but I'm not sure it's the best term either. Maybe 'giving opportunities to self-settle to sleep' (not self-soothe) is the most accurate.
(Edited for clarity.)
@the_precious_one I always associate “Sleep training” with any targeted behavior model approach to sleep (Ferber, full extinction, sleep lady shuffle, etc.). Things like wake windows, bed time routines, etc I call “sleep hygiene”.
the_precious_one
New member
@sawry1 Yes, thank you, that's a good point. We definitely did our best to have all the pieces of sleep hygiene in place (environment, routines, watching tired signs/wake windows, early bedtimes, etc.). But I guess I also sort of guided my babies toward sleeping alone/connecting sleep cycles smoothly when they had no other needs greater than sleep.
It happened at a different pace and a different way for each baby, because they are different and their needs differed. And maybe that's the main thing, really, as always in parenting: regardless of what opinions others might have, we do our best to raise the baby in front of us, using best available science AND our best knowledge of our specific, unique baby (and ourselves).
It happened at a different pace and a different way for each baby, because they are different and their needs differed. And maybe that's the main thing, really, as always in parenting: regardless of what opinions others might have, we do our best to raise the baby in front of us, using best available science AND our best knowledge of our specific, unique baby (and ourselves).
@the_precious_one It’s also totally okay if your needs as a parent change with each baby.
wackwife23
New member
@rockhopper72 There are also a lot of parents, especially in my breastfeeding groups, I've noticed think CIO means letting your baby cry at all for even a short period of time even if you're there. This is definitely not the same thing. Babies cry, that's how they communicate. In fact, sometimes we all need a good cry and some snuggles.
feelinglostagain
New member
@rockhopper72 Agree. Even the term sleep training now is so broad and not well defined. Some ppl go full extinction and cio for 12 hours. Others do the step by step comfort until out.the door. It's so much variation
@feelinglostagain Omg this. I see so many moms posting about how they can’t sleep train cause they can’t leave their baby to cry. You don’t have to leave your baby crying and you don’t have to sleep train if whatever your doing is working
beccasarah
New member
@rockhopper72 With my first he was generally a good sleeper. We "sleep trained" with "CIO" - though I'd only let him fuss or cry for ten minutes and then I'd go in and shush and pat him and he'd settle and either go to sleep or I'd have to do it a few more times, which was fine and easy. He quickly learnt that being put down in the crib meant it was sleepy time and he'd go to sleep easily and quickly.
@beccasarah This is basically Ferber.
@rockhopper72 Yeah this is exactly why I didn't seek parenting help from.. anywhere. Because everything is contradictory and absolute and poorly defined.
We had a LOT of parents insist to us sleep-training was a non-negotiable, and recommend we do it, completely unsolicited. People who had had success with it would often gloat about how "it was the hardest thing they had ever done" but the best possible thing they could have done for their child and themselves and that essentially we'd be fools and assholes not to try it. Some would point to certain strategies or books, others would simply shrug their shoulders and say "cry it out".
We only partially sleep-trained (and didn't retrain when she got sick and lost her sleep habits), but a lot of the initial strategies we tried simply didn't work. What worked for us was.. get baby sleepy enough, drop her in the crib, shut the door. I'd still have to pick her up when she woke up crying for morning boob, which varied depending on her needs. But really, in spite of the name, CIO didn't involve much crying at all, and didn't drag on and on and on like Ferber.
But yeah really frustrating that there's no way to talk about stuff when there's no consensus. I still remember when a pediatrician friend called me up to tell me about the wonders of sleep training and happened to mention, off-hand, that they were also doing baby-led weaning. I was like wow what the heck is that! She explained it just meant letting the baby signal solid readiness and just feed them what you are eating, and recommended me a website to find out more (which I never bothered visiting). I was like wow that sounds so easy! And it was, because we ended up taking that idea very literally. I only found out later there are entire compendiums of BLW strategies and how to cut specific foods etc and rules on what to do, what not to do, etc. All of which we were totally ignorant of...
We had a LOT of parents insist to us sleep-training was a non-negotiable, and recommend we do it, completely unsolicited. People who had had success with it would often gloat about how "it was the hardest thing they had ever done" but the best possible thing they could have done for their child and themselves and that essentially we'd be fools and assholes not to try it. Some would point to certain strategies or books, others would simply shrug their shoulders and say "cry it out".
We only partially sleep-trained (and didn't retrain when she got sick and lost her sleep habits), but a lot of the initial strategies we tried simply didn't work. What worked for us was.. get baby sleepy enough, drop her in the crib, shut the door. I'd still have to pick her up when she woke up crying for morning boob, which varied depending on her needs. But really, in spite of the name, CIO didn't involve much crying at all, and didn't drag on and on and on like Ferber.
But yeah really frustrating that there's no way to talk about stuff when there's no consensus. I still remember when a pediatrician friend called me up to tell me about the wonders of sleep training and happened to mention, off-hand, that they were also doing baby-led weaning. I was like wow what the heck is that! She explained it just meant letting the baby signal solid readiness and just feed them what you are eating, and recommended me a website to find out more (which I never bothered visiting). I was like wow that sounds so easy! And it was, because we ended up taking that idea very literally. I only found out later there are entire compendiums of BLW strategies and how to cut specific foods etc and rules on what to do, what not to do, etc. All of which we were totally ignorant of...
wildflower1113
New member
@rockhopper72 We did the Ferber method with all of ours and honestly it worked the best for us, we mostly don’t have a ton of nighttime issues as the norm for our house
dickwilson
New member
@rockhopper72 I never understood how you can allow kids to learn to self-soothe if you are always available to soothe them?
@dickwilson It’s not a skill you need to be forced into. Choose what you want to do with your family but those of us who don’t believe it’s a skill to be learned but a milestone to be passed are allowed to do that too.
The point is to not judge. Do what’s best for yours.
I’ve responded to my kid every single time and assisted every single wake/ bed time/ nap time. He went from a troubled sleeper to asking for bedtime himself every night and is able to “self soothe” without ever being “taught”.
Attachment based parenting worked for us. Sleep training works for others. There is no reason to make statements like this that infer one is better for everyone than the other.
The point is to not judge. Do what’s best for yours.
I’ve responded to my kid every single time and assisted every single wake/ bed time/ nap time. He went from a troubled sleeper to asking for bedtime himself every night and is able to “self soothe” without ever being “taught”.
Attachment based parenting worked for us. Sleep training works for others. There is no reason to make statements like this that infer one is better for everyone than the other.
paigerific87
New member
@a3yan Saying “how can your kid learn to do X if you always do it for them” is pretty silly. How will my toddler learn to cook if I’m always cooking for her? How will she learn to drive if I’m always driving her around? How will she learn to brush her teeth or bathe herself or wipe her butt if I always help her? I was told I held my child too much and she’d never walk. Well, she up and took her first steps before her first birthday. Not everything needs to be “taught” and certainly not forced, as you pointed out, when a child is an infant. Learning to emotionally regulate takes years just like learning to be independent/ cook food/ have the skills and spatial awareness to drive a car/ etc. I did quite enjoy that recent BBC article that talked about a sleep training study that didn’t rely on parent’s testimony but genuinely measured infant’s sleep and found that sleep trained kids got on average just 16 minutes more sleep than non sleep trained kids, they just didn’t cry out when they woke up.
dickwilson
New member
@paigerific87 That would seem to indicate that the kids who were crying it out never really learned to self soothe.
But how would you know a child might be a good self soother without trying it?
It seems like the intermittent “checking in” is doing just that. Your not rocking kiddo to sleep, your giving them a chance to learn to self soothe by reassuring them that you’ll be check in frequently.
But how would you know a child might be a good self soother without trying it?
It seems like the intermittent “checking in” is doing just that. Your not rocking kiddo to sleep, your giving them a chance to learn to self soothe by reassuring them that you’ll be check in frequently.