@grace4nan People are allowed to ask for "all advice" here because it is a parenting sub. The main rule is just that you cannot attack and shame others for doing what fully vetted research recommends like you can on basically every other parenting sub/site. If someone wants only research they can use the flair for that, and if people are linking blogs and opinion pieces, just report them and we'll be happy to remove them. Otherwise it's not meant to be a clone of r/science because r/science already exists and does not permit anything but links to actual research.
@katrina2017 That's fair. Thanks for your explanation, I think I just had different expectations for this sub and it doesn't seem to be very different to me vs. other subs.
I also feel like I see the same posts about sleep training at least once a week. There is only so much science behind it and only so much to say on the topic. I just need to get better at ignoring. That's on me, not the mods.
@grace4nan Believe me, I'm with you about the constant repeat posts. I even made a sticky about it awhile ago and then people jumped all over me for laying down some rules about it, so now I just quietly go along and ban/shadowban all the users who constantly shame others either way.
I wish downvotes would be made public or at least visible to mods because a lot of the bullying behavior is done through votes since people know I'll ban them for outright attacking people for stuff like breastfeeding or feeding their kids nutritious food (which to me is absurd...) so they all gang up and just downvote the crap out of people for doing what science says is best for their kids.
I'm very sorry for setting this off. I knew there would be a couple of off-topic posts, but I was naively hoping that most people would pick up that this was just a point about terminology.
It's particularly frustrating because there's important research that people aren't discussing, and I'm loathe to bring it up because it will cause even more of a flame war.
@rockhopper72 It's okay, I know your intentions were good in this case, it's just that 2/3 of Redditors seem unable to comprehend even the simplest and most clear cut explanations, it's like they read one sentence, make up their minds, and then explode with totally unrelated verbal diarrhea all over the thread. I'm not upset with you and I still appreciate your efforts.
FWIW, amidst all the chaos in these sleep training threads, reading on of your long comments on your own experiences shifted my own views significantly.
@mikalmo My baby was crying for hours a day because he didn't want to take a nap, even in my arms. I was also crying for hours a day. Once he was old enough to start some sleep training everyone was happier. He was sleeping much better and for longer stretches. It's really hard to hear your baby cry, but I go back and do it again if I had to. I think people tend to discount how important sufficient sleep is for a baby's development. That was always my first priority.
@mikalmo People think they will get a parenting award for: never sleeping, breastfeeding until the kid is 6 years old, always looking a mess and never having time to themselves
No real judgement. But on top of all this, vaginal births laboring in excess of 48 hrs with no drugs.
Like, whyyyyyy torture yourself for an imaginary mommy award? I'm old, with a toddler,. Give me the drugs, all the sleep, and I'm not making my own baby food. The most I did was cloth diaper, but I used liners because I couldn't be bothered with rinsing all the diapers.
Edited to add: I honestly don't care what other moms/parents do until they're humblebragging and complaining about how tired they are because their own sanctimonious BS means that Sueueueuzieghleigh (pronounced Like Emily) is 3,. Still breastfeeding, being cloth diapers and not sleeping through the night because removing any of those isn't gentle attachment parenting and I'm abusive because I had a c-section, pumped, sleep trained, did BLW and moved her to her own room at 14 months.
@mikalmo If you don't want to give birth naturally... don't?
I spent 36 hours in labor with no meds. I didn't mind it. I just breathed and chanted and my husband gave me massages when it got too much and it worked for me. Why does that have to bother anyone? If it was unsafe, my obgyn would tell me, and I trusted her.
@kentgladden I think attitudes like yours bother people because it downplays the role that luck has when it comes to birth. You could've been laboring naturally just beautifully, but if your babies umbilical cord had come out first (1 in 300 births, unpredictable as to who) it would've been a race against the clock to get them out via c section (less than 10 min before permanent brain damage sets in). If that (or not to mention any other of the many health catastrophe that can happen unpredictably during birth) had happened to you, you wouldn't have been at fault, but you also wouldn't have been able to control it.
Women who go into birth with a fixed, inflexible idea of what they want out of it are most likely to be traumatized when something veers from that path. Not all complications are due to medical interventions either, as some natural birthers want to believe.
I'm happy you had the birth you wanted, but remember, more of that was due to fortune rather than anything exceptional that you did as a mother.
@kentgladden Its not a flex to be in pain, or lack of sleep, or suffer needlessly. It doesn't make someone a better parent.
The issue is when people brag about how much they suffer for their children. I'm sorry that wasn't more clear.
No one asked how you gave birth or about your birth. Do you go around bragging about how miserable you were and how much better you are for being miserable?
@mikalmo If men could give birth, there wouldn’t even be an option for med-free delivery I need women to sit with why they think extreme suffering is necessary to be a good mother, as if there isn’t enough natural unavoidable pain and suffering that comes with it. Not sleeping for four years straight does not make you a good mom!
@mikalmo I just read this to my husband and he asked if I wrote it.
Recently, while watching our babies interact, my friend said to me: “I bet my baby would be as happy as yours if she also had a 3 hour nap.” Yup, I bet she would and it is within your reach if you give her the tools.
Team sleep train fo liffeeee!! Whatever it means or looks like for you, supporting independent sleep is the way to go.
@tbaby My mom coslept with me. I was in my 30s before I learned the proper tools for independent sleep (otherwisei was a well adjusted kid, independent, etc).
I want my child to have all the skills to be as successful in life as possible!
My best friend's son is 4 months older than my daughter, and he gets so worked up about sleep she absolutely cannot sleep train. He'll throw up when he gets too upset. So I totally get sleep training won't work for everyone, but her kid is an exception I think
@rockhopper72 The last source you quoted talks about newly born infants needing to cry for an hour for the health of their lungs. But on the other hand there is sufficient enough evidence against leaving babies to cry unnecessarily that the AAP states “sleep training” is not recommended before 6 months. It sounds like Holt’s theory has been debunked to me.
I need women to sit with why they think extreme suffering is necessary to be a good mother, as if there isn’t enough natural unavoidable pain and suffering that comes with it. Not sleeping for four years straight does not make you a good mom!