@torunn Yes I agree! Sounds like we are in a similar boat with the sleep (17 months here still waking several times a night!) I find the judgement very disheartening. Everything is a balance, and parents have to weigh things, like is the small risk of cosleeping worth the getting to bond with my baby that way and getting better sleep? Is leaving my baby to cry a couple of nights worth it if it means I can sleep and therefore be a better more present parent?
Everyone has a different baby and a different life and a different way of being able to handle things. Plenty of sleep trained babies/kids have secure attachment. If sleep training caused attachment issues we would know about it!
@rhemajoy Yeah exactly. Everyone has to just weigh the options and do what's best for them and their family. I didn't intend on co-sleeping. But I was so sleep deprived that I literally fell asleep holding my baby and I woke up to the sensation of dropping her. I decided that intentionally co-sleeping had to be better than unintentionally hurting my child. Another parent in that situation may have decided that the inherent risks of co-sleeping outweigh the potential pitfalls of sleep training.
At any rate I think OP has an overly-critical and catastrophic view of sleep training. The truth is that there are a million different ways to be loving and responsive to your children (and lots of different approaches to ST) and sleep training isn't going to destroy bonds/attachments that are otherwise healthy.
@torunn So well put and i completely agree with you and Kitty.
Sleep deprivation isn’t something you can will yourself out of!
I think it’s better to have the grace and generosity to trust that most people love their babies and are doing the best they can.
The sanctimonious and judgemental core of APs are pretty destructive to parenting life IMO. It’s a fragile time and it’s not helpful to have people insinuate any choice (unless truly dangerous) is this awful.
@armyangel333 I’m sorry you’re triggered by people who are concerned for infant welfare. We have the peak body AAIMHI (Australian Association for Infant Mental Health) who have a position statement that summarises they quote “…are concerned that extinction based behavioural sleep interventions are not consistent with the infants needs for optimal emotional and physiological health and may have unintended negative consequences”.
In other words, it not a matter of opinion of randoms on Reddit. No one is having a go at parents. They are concerned about what parents are told and the impact on their children, which I’d assume anyone could comprehend was infact and empathetic and good thing.
I think you need to dig a little deeper on what it is you’re actually feeling and why.
@riseup I think you need to define your terms as you seem to be conflating sleep training and extinction based approaches.
FWIW I don’t really support extinction based methods but I can see situations where desperation wins out. I cant comment on thé judgement call other families make.
As to digging deeper/being triggered… I’m not personally feeling any type of way about this. I actually practice attachment parenting myself and it’s going well for me.
I do havé a lot of empathy for mothers in general though and if I were to dig deeper into that…. I think it comes from my feminism and my belief that women often face huge pressures to juggle family/work and it can and does tip people over the edge. I hate that.
@mercycee Sleep training = An umbrella term that results in behaviour modification (stopping a child from calling out). Strategies are marketed as: controlled comforting, spaced soothing, controlled soothing, camping out, pick up/put down. Clever marketing, same objective.
@aeworld There’s so much wrong with your statement. Do you have an understanding of research methods?
Most studies are based on parent reports. Do you know what that means? They rely on parents to report on different outcome measures. Clearly this methodology is bias.
In the large study I mentioned above (ref Hall) had a gold standard methodology. They had parents report on outcomes who said their children were “sleeping through”. However, the children were connected to ectigraphs and it showed, very clearly, that ST children woke just as regularly as their counterparts who weren’t sleeping trained, they just didn’t call out. It’s people like yourself who want to believe in ST to suit your agenda. I myself, I want to be realistic about what it really is.
@riseup I've collected all studies (I could find) on sleep training that have been carried out the last 20 years, including Hall. And my conclusion is that research doesn't show any negative effects. Of course there could be negative effects that we haven't been able to prove yet though.
I come from a culture which is very anti sleep training and I was very much against it too. It took one year and lots of thinking and reading before I decided to sleep train.
I can link the studies if anyone wants to draw their own conclusion.
I don’t think you realise the dispute isn’t necessarily about long term effects. Whilst it is absolutely not the same or comparable, children who have suffered sexual abuse don’t remember under a certain age. A lot of people here just don’t think STing is a very nice thing to do.
@riseup Already read it, but thanks. Bottom line of the article is do what works for you
I am completely fine with people not liking sleep training. No one is forced and I completely understand why you would be against it. I just don't agree that research shows it's bad. Linked to all the studies above.
@aeworld Did you really read it? It’s a fact they don’t “sleep”. They remain silent. You must think that’s a positive. I certainly don’t.
As I said above, the core of what we’re discussing is not about disputing whether or not there is long term damage (which will never be accurately measured as it wouldn’t pass ethics approval) - people don’t think it’s nice. Plenty of horrible things can happen to children that may or may not leave an imprint. And I personally wouldn’t risk it.
No one here cares whether you or any stranger on this thread personally ST’ed. We should however, as a collective, ALL care about an unregulated industry filled with misinformation encouraging and promoting ST’ing as something it simply is not. Parents should have the freedom to make their own informed decisions - as you stated. Do what works for you. And unless you have studied research methods as a subject, as I have at a university level, then the studies are incredibly hard to analyse for the average parent.
@aeworld the articles are there, what is occurring is there, and you can take from them what you so wish. No one expects those who have done ST’ing to turn around and backflip actions they have already taken. It’s called cognitive dissonance. And no one here is asking you to either. So I guess we’re in agreeance for parents to do as they please.
@riseup Yes... I feel the same way OP... People really believe it works 100% OF THE TIME. And I always hear "If you ST- etc. etc. etc. your baby would sleep too, it really works" for the millionth time...
like no...
Hard no. 1. Sleep training IS NOT 100% effective and causes a lot of stress on babies. It teaches them not to cry out, and that concept is just horrifying to me, you've emotionally conditioned your child not to cry for help, for their momma or da or whoever is their caregiver. This helpless little being that can't communicate other than crying. Its awful. I could literally never do it. When I read about how quiet orphanages are, it made me think of ST... the babies don't cry because they know no one is coming for them... no one is responding to their needs... that shatters secure attachment imo... I mean to each their own, but I still have not let my son cry for me while I actively don't respond. He sleeps like garbage btw, and I have just accepted that he is not a good sleeper, (which some babies just are not good sleepers no matter what). I know if I sleep trained him it would just teach him not to cry for me because I'm not there, it wouldn't teach him to fall asleep by himself. I lay beside him on the floor while hes in his crib after rocking and nursing him to sleep, when he wakes, I am right there and pat his mattress and coax him back to laying down, sing to him and then hold his hand if he needs it. He goes to sleep like this, sometimes when he wakes up he finds my hand and lays back down, because I've shown him what to do, 1000 times but I couldn't imagine leaving him to "FiGuRe It OuT oN hIs OwN".
@bemmmy I hear you. And very much agree on the same approach. I think one thing to note is that we classify bubs as ‘bad’ sleepers, when probably in actual fact most of the time they are just “normal” sleepers.
Sounds like you’re doing an incredible job. And how beautiful that he reaches out for your hand
@riseup Yes. People have this belief that children sleep by x, date, 3 mo, 6 mo or by 9 mo or CERTAINLY by 12 mo your child should sleep through the night. Nope. Not all kids. It's VERY normal not to sleep through the night at 12 mo... Unfortunately my son is 20 mo tomorrow and we're still up every hour at least 2 nights a week and the rest 2-4 times.
the articles are there, what is occurring is there, and you can take from them what you so wish. No one expects those who have done ST’ing to turn around and backflip actions they have already taken. It’s called cognitive dissonance. And no one here is asking you to either. So I guess we’re in agreeance for parents to do as they please.