Struggling with ST culture

[xwhiteflagx]

@riseup It’s funny, before having a baby I was all like “I will go to the gym everyday and if he cries the whole time I don’t care” and “no babies in the bed” and “he will never co-sleep/contact nap”

Oh my goodness if I had a time machine, I would go back and slap myself silly. The thought of sleep training makes my heart physically ache in my chest. The second my little man starts crying he’s getting all the cuddles and boobs he could dream of.

We haven’t been apart since he was born (he’s 14 months), we co-sleep and contact sleep most nights and day naps

I’m not usually one to judge parents, but I genuinely do not understand the ones who use CIO. I find it cruel and neglectful and truly do not think it should be used as a tactic. Baby doesn’t learn to “self soothe” they learn that when they cry, no one will come, and that alone is heartbreaking.

You’re not the only one who struggles with these concepts. Do what feels right, do not feel pressure to use these heartless procedures if they don’t feel right.

 

[rhemajoy]

@riseup I think it’s kind of judgemental to act like mothers who sleep train or do things differently are somehow ignorant or cruel or not as enlightened or whatever. Yes research show ST’d babies wake up but don’t cry out, but that might be just because they don’t feel the need to cry out because over time they’ve realised it’s ok to lie there and go back to sleep and Mum’s around and will be there in the morning. These same babies do cry out despite sleep training if they’re sick or need something like food or drink, so I don’t think anyone can make the assumption these babies are somehow feeling neglected or like no one will come for them so why bother. Maybe they just learned that they’re ok and they don’t actually need anything right now?

Also we know for a fact that sleep deprivation seriously affects mental health and that poor maternal mental health does have a lasting negative impact on babies. Whereas there is no known lasting negative impact on kids from being sleep trained, if their parents are otherwise loving and responsive. Some parents sleep train because it’s the best thing to do for them and their child as a unit. Maybe some parents commit to respond to every cry and cosleep etc and it worsens their PPD due to sleep deprivation and stress, and then that negatively affects their child. But I wouldn’t judge because I know how hard it is and I myself haven’t been able to ST due to anxiety but I wish I could because I’m sure I’d be a much healthier and more present mother if I could sleep.

I just think it’s unhealthy to judge like this or take on the imagined sorrow of other people’s babies as if they’re having a terrible life because they don’t have parents as wise and as resilient as you. Most people love their babies and are doing their best at a very hard job.

 

[riseup]

@rhemajoy

• Infants are born with their hindbrain (basic human function and “survival”).
• Next, the limbic system, develops over the first three years. That’s responsible for emotions and relationships with others.
• Lastly, the neocortex develops through childhood and adolescence. This part of our brain is responsible for analytical, critical and rational thought. I’ll leave it to you to decipher what part of the brain you think it’s necessary for “realising it’s ok and to go back to sleep”. Infants do not have capacity to be able to regulate in this manner. This is an anatomical and physiological fact.

I could go into great detail about the benefits of regulation, the effect on the oxytocin pathway and how this literally hard wires a brain to create neuron pathways. What I am realising is, people aren’t researching to this degree. Or perhaps they can’t understand it. Or don’t want to.

Yes, sleep deprivation is awful. I’ve experienced it myself. I empathise with you immensely. Also on the anxiety front. It’s torture.

I just feel that the focus shouldn’t be on silencing infants, for the reasons above, but how parents could otherwise be supported.

 

[hascompassneedsustainence]

@riseup YES to all of this!

 

[rhemajoy]

@riseup What’s the difference between an infant no longer crying because they realise no one will come and that’s a terrible feeling of abandonment and damaging to them and it’s not ok, or not crying because they realise no one will come right now but it’s ok? Obviously they’re not ‘realising’ either thing in a conscious or analytical way, they’re just responding to their environment but there’s no evidence to suggest that this ‘realisation’ no one is going to come if they cry after waking at night is damaging. If they’re safe warm fed dry etc and parent always comes to get them in the morning or always comes if they do a pain/discomfort cry then there’s no reason to think that the cessation of night crying indicates some sort of harm and certainly not a harm that outweighs the harm of having severely sleep deprived parents.

I just see this kind of post so often in this sub and it always seems so judgemental and mean, and seems to ignore the fact that mother and child are a whole-the child will not do well if the mother is not healthy. I see people killing themselves over trying to respond to every cry and basically giving all of themselves mentally and physically to the point it’s detrimental to their child as well, because of this pressure and idea that if your baby isn’t glued to you or is left to cry a bit then you’re a terrible mother and are damaging your child, when evidence shows that you’re more likely to damage your child if you’re so exhausted you can’t interact properly or make mistakes with meds or when driving or get PPD etc. It’s important for a baby for a mother to look after herself too.

Yes there should be more support for parents, obviously it would be great if we could all get enough sleep and be able to respond to every cry without anxiety but that’s not the world we live in, and in this world we should be supportive and kind to other mothers. I see constant judgements everywhere- you’re a monster if you sleep train, you’re a monster if you cosleep because it’s going to kill your baby, etc etc. Having gone through what I’ve been through I can’t judge anyone for cosleeping or sleep training. Although my baby hates cosleeping and I can never do sleep training due to anxiety so I’m in the boat of ruined mothers, but I wish I could either cosleep or sleep train to feel ok again, so I want to be supportive of everyone who does either thing in order to survive.

I just want people to be nice to mothers. If they’re not abusive and aren’t neglectful and their baby is safe and clean and fed and interacted with a lot daily then be nice and try not to judge, it’s a hard job and comes with so many fears, I don’t know, just be nice. Supporting mothers is supporting their babies.

 

[riseup]

@rhemajoy Ok your first point, read above what I wrote again. You can further research brain development in more detail if the brief summary wasn’t enough.

And I don’t believe anyone in this thread has used the term “damage”. And do you know why there is no studies/evidence as to said “damage”? Because it would be unethical to set an objective to measure such a thing, it would not pass and ethics threshold. There are rigorous protocols. Not to mention it would be incredibly hard to measure.

We do however, have an abundance of literature that shows the benefits both at a physiological level and neurological level, for being responsive to a child.

No one is a perfect parent, and no one here has said that a parent must respond to every single cry, although a lot do. No one is disputing how hard it is for parents or what they have been through. Do we want for ST’ing to be fine / safe / acceptable or even beneficial for a child? Heck I’m sure we all do as it would be a much easier route wouldn’t it. There are plenty of parents who rely upon sleep schools to do the boot camp style sleep training for them if they feel they are unable to.

No one wishes badly for another mother/ parent, and everyone can empathise being parents themselves and we all struggle in ways. I can see this thread is triggering you, but no one is against you here.

But we can and should be angry about the ST industry which is unregulated, completely flawed and full of misinformation. It’s unfortunate that there are parents out there who choose to either spread misinformation as it suits what they have done or ignore this information entirely, because it suits their goals.

All we need is the truth to be told, for parents to be able to make their own informed decisions - whatever their choice.

 

[rhemajoy]

@riseup I have a PhD in psychology and a masters in neuroscience I understand the brain. I just don’t agree with your conclusions. Ok you haven’t used the term damage but then what are you suggesting? There is no damage but it still isn’t ok? Why then isn’t it ok if it does mitigate actual evidenced damage of poor parental mental health or the severely negative impacts of sleep deprivation?

I understand the difficulties of researching many things related to pregnancy and infant development. But the studies that have been done do not point to harm caused by sleep training that outweighs the harm caused by parental sleep deprivation. There have been studies that show the negative impacts of poor parental mental health on children and there have been studies showing that sleep deprivation negatively impacts mental health.

Your OP does not come across as empathetic at all, it comes across as though you are judging these mothers and you are basing that judgement on assumptions. Yes it is important to be responsive to your baby, but people who ST can still be responsive and in fact may be more responsive during the day if they are not sleep deprived.

You want the truth to be told, but the truth is that if you love your baby and interact with them and respond to them most of the time then they will have secure attachment. The truth is that there are a lot of variables to take into consideration and a weighing of risks and benefits. I think your OP is more like misinformation because it acts as though these things these mothers are doing are wrong or harmful when there’s no evidence of that. Unless they’re literally ignoring their baby all day (which they might be, the leaving to look at cards for hours does sound neglectful if they’re not talking to them regularly etc.) then their babies will be fine if they’re otherwise loving and responsive.

I don’t think anyone’s against me, like I said I haven’t sleep trained and I’m ultra responsive to my baby due to anxiety but I don’t think it’s healthy . I do think posts like this are mean to mothers who felt they had to sleep train but are deeply caring parents. I do think posts like this could trigger women who have PPD.

 

[armyangel333]

@rhemajoy Your responses here are all brilliant. Really considered and even handed and kind. Thank you.

I don’t have strong feelings on how other people raise their babies because as you mention, there are so many variables.

I assumed I would sleep train because I suffer from depression and don’t cope well without sleep. However, in practice I am a very responsive mother and haven’t been able to ever leave my baby to cry even for a minute.

Now he’s going to nursery and I am going back to work and all of a sudden, this intense bond has to be diluted a bit. It’s heartbreaking. But it’s not going to be damaging for him, even though his critical thinking hasn’t kicked in yet, he’s going to learn I always collect him from nursery.

The OP is, in my view, quite sanctimonious and mean spirited. Like people just don’t love their babies enough. That’s ridiculous.

And actually, there are plenty of studies we could do ethically. Maybe someone could research how many violent criminals from a sample were sleep trained. Or a cohort of consenting adults with mental health problems could answer same.

Babies are resilient. Loads of families have multiple young children and the youngest are necessarily ignored a little. Just because the mum is busy with what OP might consider legitimate tasks (eg cuddling another of their offspring), the baby would surely not interpret that any differently than if the mother is making herself a coffee or doing yoga.

This is another stick to beat women with and it’s gross.

And all this stuff about how it’s the fault of society is actually irrelevant. We are where we are and have to deal. This is just an excuse to shit on mothers and then cry innocence by saying you’re actually blaming society. Please. OP is just yet another voice making women into monsters for not doing the hardest job in the world to a perfect standard. It’s gross.

I think OP will eventually cringe at the tone of this post.

 

[riseup]

@armyangel333 Sigh. I can’t even be bothered responding to all of this. Using big words doesn’t make you sound educated. Your understanding of research methods clearly lacks, “Ethical studies to research criminals who were sleep trained”? Really… with so many variables that would be such a great idea lol.

Mean spirited I am not. These are genuine concerns I have for children. And if that makes me mean spirited in your eyes you must be looking for ways to justify your own actions or thoughts. I’m a realist. And I would love for ST’ing to be a magic bullet, but I am afraid my morals and values wouldn’t allow me to do it. If yours do, that’s your choice.

 

[armyangel333]

@riseup Lol ok. I am a responsive parent and i don’t sleep train because I can’t bring myself to do it.

I’m not trying to justify anything.

As for long words and sounding educated - I’m not educated and I’m not trying to sound like I am. I’m just being myself

 

[riseup]

@rhemajoy The shame you speak of mothers feeling is probably within themselves hearing of things that don’t align with their actions. As someone put it above, the dichotomy causes cognitive dissonance.

Most people on this thread are keen to discuss valid factual points and nuances in research. If you want to ST no one is stopping or shaming you. Perhaps you might like to join another thread where you can feel more comfortable in your ideals?

 

[rhemajoy]

@riseup How am I not discussing facts and nuance? The facts are there’s no evidence sleep trained babies suffer harm or do not form secure attachments. The facts are that sleep deprivation causes mental health issues and mental health issues in parents can harm babies.

My whole point is that you are not bringing nuanced and are making assumptions and not taking certain facts into account. The way your OP is presented is as if it’s so terrible to sleep train or do things differently to how you think they should be done, and I’m pointing out that it’s not that simple and that the well being of a child is intrinsically linked to that of their caregivers, that there are many variables involved and only individual parents can make decisions about this stuff based on the variables in their lives.

I’m saying it’s wrong to shame people about this stuff. And no, mothers feeling shame because they have extreme PPD and anxiety and read shaming stuff online is no indication that the shame is in any way warranted, which is what you’re suggesting here.

I joined this sub because I’m interested in forming secure attachment with my child and I thought that other people interested in that would be empathetic people who are into things like compassion and understanding. But I get the impression some of the people here would be happy to shame their daughters or DILs in the future for doing things they don’t think aligns with their beliefs about child rearing. It all just speaks to an attitude that seems at odds with the idea of fostering empathy and comfort.

If you don’t like things like sleep training, that’s fine. I obviously don’t like it either, for me; I can’t do it. But don’t go around making posts basically slagging off other mothers because they’re doing something you don’t choose to do. What even is the point? It comes across like just wanting to feel superior or something.

I am commenting on this thread so that anyone who is struggling who comes across it can see a different less judgemental point of view.

 

[riseup]

@rhemajoy If raising scenarios and facts offends mothers, I’m afraid that’s on them to question such methods. We shouldn’t be silent on the topics at hand. People here have concerns for the misinformation that is advertised in an unregulated industry that does a disservice to both children AND their parents.

I heard of a mother who didn’t feed her small child at dinner. She just couldn’t do it, didn’t want to do it, and felt because an Instagram account said to “fill your child up during the day” that her child ate enough and were fine. They would cry hysterically for dinner but she would ignore them and they eventually stopped asking. She taught compliance. Would her child remember? Probably categorically not. Per your logic, we shouldn’t say anything in fear of offending another mother’s parenting. Which is rubbish when it’s of disservice to the mother and child.

Smacking children used to be common too. When we know better, we do better. At one point in time someone had to raise the effects of this, offending people all over the world who did it, and now it’s illegal (at least in Aus).

If you’re being triggered by this thread, remember this is an attachment parenting thread. You’re best off joining other threads you’re more aligned to.

 

[rhemajoy]

@riseup But you have no facts. You have one study that doesn’t even say what you’re claiming it says and a load of assumptions. There is tons and tons of evidence that smacking kids is damaging long term. I can’t believe you’re now equating sleep training to child abuse. You keep suggesting I’m triggered but no I’m irritated by people being mean and judgemental and sanctimonious about things they don’t even really understand and claiming to have facts while ignoring all other facts.

This sub is for attachment parenting, it’s not the anti sleep training sub, and plenty of parents practise trying to foster a secure attachment while also sleep training or while not thinking ST is some sort of abuse.

 

[riseup]

@rhemajoy Here you go. You can educate yourself further from a BBC meta analysis on the studies https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies

Bonus
- Heres another great article by Sarah, Psychology Honours and qualifications in antenatal education. https://sarahockwell-smith.com/2014...hen-you-teach-a-baby-to-self-soothe-to-sleep/

• And whilst this is clearly emotive and I don’t know the author, you can read upon the the history of sleep training, stemming from theories in the 1800s. https://www.southernnaturalparentin...line-of-horrors-the-history-of-sleep-training. The history is well known, so you can google the physicians for yourself.

These are facts and should really help you to understand what ST’ing is and isn’t.

 

[skyguy]

@riseup Serious questions, and you can choose not to answer if you don't want to.

1. How many kids do you have?
2. What was the worst sleep your kid(s) had?
3. Do you work outside of the house?
4. What kind of support system do you have?
5. If your baby's sleep was atrocious at some point, how did you cope with your sleep deprivation the next day? Did you feel like you were able to be an engaging and enriching parent to your baby during the day despite the sleep deprivation?

 

[victorbess]

@rhemajoy I think difficult conversations are required as well as adjusting expectations of what it means to be a parent.

Parental mental health is being pushed but rarely do we talk about children’s mental health.

Anecdotally, I know of a few cases where parents sleep trained infants & babies only to have it completely broken down by the time their kids are older toddlers and can speak. For them, it was easier to ignore cries, but they can’t seem to ignore words from their toddlers that they don’t want to be left alone at night.

For some parents, having kids is more of a “thing to do” rather than accepting more or less a life long commitment and the sacrifices required to raise a child. That includes very difficult situations such as sleep deprivation.

 

[rhemajoy]

@victorbess A parents mental health is essential for their baby’s mental health. There is plenty of actual evidence showing that poor maternal mental health negatively impacts babies. Far far more evidence of this than evidence that sleep training negatively impacts babies. Yes parenting involves sacrifices but people are only human. Everyone expects some sleep deprivation with a baby but there are people whose babies wake every hour at night for over a year. No one can prepare for that. It’s physically impossible to be ok and be a good parent with that level of sleep deprivation.

There’s evidence that cosleeping increases risk of infant death, but tons of people take that small risk because they think it’s very tiny risk weighed against feeling close to their baby and all getting better sleep. Others can’t bear to take that tiny risk so they sleep train or they destroy their own health trying to respond to baby all night long.

Tons of people bed share/cosleep in this sub because they believe it is the right thing to do and have weighed the risks and benefits and made a decision that suits them. Other people would judge and say they’re risking their child’s life to get better sleep etc. But those people are being mean and judgemental too. Every good parent has to weigh risks and benefits all day long and only that parent can know what’s best for their baby and themselves.

Being a parent doesn’t mean sacrificing your own mental and physical health to ensure your child never cries or feels discomfort. In the long run, parental mental health is incredibly important for children. Obviously as a parent you have to and should make huge sacrifices, but not to the point you destroy yourself and actually become a worse parent. We also need to model self care for our children. You always put your kids first, but like the thing about putting your oxygen mask on before helping others, you just cannot be a good and present parent if you’re dealing with torture level zombifying sleep deprivation.

 

[riseup]

@victorbess Fantastic summary. Whole heartedly agree.

 

[torunn]

@rhemajoy This is the most level headed response in this entire thread. I don't ST either because I just can't. A crying baby ignites me with... I don't know if it's anxiety... But it's definitely a drive to do something about it. And it's not something I can tune out. I let my youngest cry for maybe 10 minutes one night back when she was awake every 40 mins, but I just ended up crying too. She's 2 now and has still never slept through the night. I'm exhausted and I know it's entirely my fault because I almost immediately respond to every cry and I know I don't give her the time or space she might need to realize that everything is fine and she can go back to sleep. I mean, it's not like she has any real night time needs at this point. At least not very often. She's a toddler.

But my best friend STed all of her babies and her kids are wonderful. Their family bond is strong and, get this... everyone in their house gets to sleep at night which is probably delightful. No one is damaged or traumatized. Yes we parent differently but we are both good parents.

I also think this post feels out of touch and written from a place of privilege. Some people are raising babies alone. Some people have to go back to work immediately. Some people work dangerous jobs and can't afford to be sleep deprived. Some parents have medical conditions or mental health problems that are exacerbated by a lack of sleep. And many people have other children to tend to, or maybe sick or elderly relatives that they're caring for and they just can't possibly respond to every cry. There are countless reasons why someone may choose to ST. And that's totally fine, because it's their life and they are the ones that have to live it.

It's ok to never ST and it's ok to ST. Both are fine when done with love and compassion, all things being equal. But it's really not cool to pity and harshly criticize everyone who chooses to parent differently from you.