@jarvis75 He can’t talk about anything. We never got hugged by him, never get told he loves us. I completely and utterly put it down to my Oma locking him in a room to cry his little heart out. It breaks my heart to think about my dad as a baby not getting his needs met. My Oma just told my cousin a story, whilst laughing, about her dad (my uncle) being a young baby in a cot on wheels crying & crying and they pushed him down the hallway into the room then closing the door. It’s so sad that that was considered the norm. When my Mum died suddenly my dad sent my brother and I an email rather than coming to find us and consoling us.
Struggling with ST culture
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@latyneyez My gosh, this makes me think of my father and my "Oma" though we are estranged... it breaks my heart for my dad as a baby. All I could think was : https://www.scientificamerican.com/...s-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/
@bemmmy How interesting! And absolutely heartbreaking 
my Oma is not Dutch or German herself, she’s actually half Malaysian, they evacuated Singapore at the start of the war and the Japanese bombed their ship just near Australia…her mum was absolutely awful & no doubt her harsh parenting came from her. I adore my Oma, we are very close, but I wasn’t brought up by her! She is very different now. And wonderful with my daughter but I have to hold boundaries.
my Oma is not Dutch or German herself, she’s actually half Malaysian, they evacuated Singapore at the start of the war and the Japanese bombed their ship just near Australia…her mum was absolutely awful & no doubt her harsh parenting came from her. I adore my Oma, we are very close, but I wasn’t brought up by her! She is very different now. And wonderful with my daughter but I have to hold boundaries.gordoncwalton
New member
@latyneyez I’m crying. This is my dad too. My Oma is long dead but I can well imagine this is how she treated him, having heard other distressing tales about his life.
@riseup Another Australian mum here also struggling with this.
It's everywhere. Even on the morning show the other day at the doctor's office.
It's gotten to the point that I refuse to discuss sleep with people.
I have even told my partner that when friends come over with their babe, no sleep talk!
Just leaves me feeling drained and unempowered.
It's everywhere. Even on the morning show the other day at the doctor's office.
It's gotten to the point that I refuse to discuss sleep with people.
I have even told my partner that when friends come over with their babe, no sleep talk!
Just leaves me feeling drained and unempowered.
@amanda911 Drained and un empowered is how I feel too. I have tried to discuss it very tactfully and I lost a friend over it. Ironically, I am not too keen on being her friend now either knowing what she does with her children and her inability to acknowledge fact.
I know factually, instinctively, scientifically that responding to our children is the right thing to do for our children. However, parents who ST claim it’s the right thing to do for them as parents. That’s where it gets yucky.
It would be very hard to not talk about sleep when it’s all around us, even on TV
I know factually, instinctively, scientifically that responding to our children is the right thing to do for our children. However, parents who ST claim it’s the right thing to do for them as parents. That’s where it gets yucky.
It would be very hard to not talk about sleep when it’s all around us, even on TV
@amanda911 Yes, Aussie here too! Even the child health nurse was pushing me to sleep train like it’s essential for their health. I didn’t ask for her advice on sleep, I’m happy with our approach. But she felt very obliged to push for ST
margaretjankowski
New member
@amanda911 I really like the idea of putting down a boundary on sleep talk, or lack thereof!
@amanda911 Yep even if you call Ngala for support they’ll promote drowsy but awake which is so unrealistic for a lot of babies & just causes more anxiety when it doesn’t work. Great if it does but I hate that it’s seen as the norm.
dimmuborgir
New member
@amanda911 No sleep talk! Good idea haha. I was SO excited to catch up with my Australian friend with a baby 8 weeks younger than mine. I'm in Canada so the time zones don't always line up! So we had our chat but omg it turned to sleep and I didn't know my friend was like... Sleep training militant?!! It turned into 45 minutes of her talking at me and even finding her book to read me some pages. It was intense.
I was left so drained. It wasn't nice to catch up. Really awkward.
So yeah. No sleep talk rule, I love it.
I was left so drained. It wasn't nice to catch up. Really awkward.
So yeah. No sleep talk rule, I love it.
@dimmuborgir Ergh I hate that for you.
It's such a hard thing when your friends are deep into the sleep train hole.
Or any militant parenting motto tbh.
There are some friends who I can just steer the conversation away from.
But there are absolutely some friends I have had to say "I am sorry, I have a personal boundary that I don't want to talk to hear about baby sleep. I am so glad that it worked for you but I would much rather discuss ------"
I have yet to have someone be offended by it.
It's such a hard thing when your friends are deep into the sleep train hole.
Or any militant parenting motto tbh.
There are some friends who I can just steer the conversation away from.
But there are absolutely some friends I have had to say "I am sorry, I have a personal boundary that I don't want to talk to hear about baby sleep. I am so glad that it worked for you but I would much rather discuss ------"
I have yet to have someone be offended by it.
@riseup Aussie first time mum here too!
I couldn't believe how much it was encouraged and still considered so normal. Especially since my baby woke hourly for a long time, I coslept from week 2 by choice.
Not one person suggested ruling out any physical causes, they all went straight to sleep training or sleep school. GOs too, declined an iron test or ENT referral despite signs of an oral issue and both hey parents having sleep aponea and nose issues
It was very destabilising and made me question myself in the first 6 months.
She did have a tongue tie addressed at 3 months, only as I paid privately for an IBCLCA to refer us.
At 1yo now, she is sleeping really long stretches and very occasionally thorough the night.... by herself!
I still cosleep, we still have really rough nights but she moved to sleeping by herself slowly and with zero CIO or being alone.
I will never understand why it's ok to ignore your child at night, but not in the day?
Would you ignore you partner crying next to you, or saying they're really scared and need your comfort?
Crying is literally their only form of communication.
Anyway, preaching to the choir haha
I couldn't believe how much it was encouraged and still considered so normal. Especially since my baby woke hourly for a long time, I coslept from week 2 by choice.
Not one person suggested ruling out any physical causes, they all went straight to sleep training or sleep school. GOs too, declined an iron test or ENT referral despite signs of an oral issue and both hey parents having sleep aponea and nose issues
It was very destabilising and made me question myself in the first 6 months.
She did have a tongue tie addressed at 3 months, only as I paid privately for an IBCLCA to refer us.
At 1yo now, she is sleeping really long stretches and very occasionally thorough the night.... by herself!
I still cosleep, we still have really rough nights but she moved to sleeping by herself slowly and with zero CIO or being alone.
I will never understand why it's ok to ignore your child at night, but not in the day?
Would you ignore you partner crying next to you, or saying they're really scared and need your comfort?
Crying is literally their only form of communication.
Anyway, preaching to the choir haha
@riseup I’ve been there love- for reference my twins are almost 7 months old and I’m def the “freak” for not sleep training as sleep training multiples is just assumed.
I try so hard not to Mom shame but when I read stories and people are so calm about “yeah we did CIO, usually retraining him he only cried for 45 min but last night it was 2 hours” I want to scream. It feels like borderline child abuse!!
My brother, whom I love very much, just had his first child with his wife. They started a sleep program the first week home and will be sleep training as early as possible. It’s been so hard on me to keep my mouth shut but I know they think I’m insane for being obsessed with EFB and co-sleeping so I don’t really want to start that war.
It breaks my heart but at the end of the day all you can do is the best you can for your babies. I won’t lie some nights with my twins they will tag team and I’m up every 30 min all night and just exhausted and I envy those people who get 8 hours of sleep every night. But even after my longest nights I know it’s never something for our family.
Stay strong. It breaks my heart too.
I try so hard not to Mom shame but when I read stories and people are so calm about “yeah we did CIO, usually retraining him he only cried for 45 min but last night it was 2 hours” I want to scream. It feels like borderline child abuse!!
My brother, whom I love very much, just had his first child with his wife. They started a sleep program the first week home and will be sleep training as early as possible. It’s been so hard on me to keep my mouth shut but I know they think I’m insane for being obsessed with EFB and co-sleeping so I don’t really want to start that war.
It breaks my heart but at the end of the day all you can do is the best you can for your babies. I won’t lie some nights with my twins they will tag team and I’m up every 30 min all night and just exhausted and I envy those people who get 8 hours of sleep every night. But even after my longest nights I know it’s never something for our family.
Stay strong. It breaks my heart too.
@jujus Hey, fellow twin mom here! My twins just turned 2 a few days ago, and I just want to tell you it does get easier! My boys were never sleep trained and are mostly sleeping through the night now. I cuddle them to sleep, and they'll be out till morning! I remember the days of waking up with a different one every half hour and I just want to say I see you, and I promise it's not forever!
@jujus What an incredible job you are doing to raise twins!
It breaks my heart my heart to hear about your brother and wife. And it breaks my heart to not say anything to people that I come across as I feel I’m doing a disservice to the child and even the parents. I know if I was a parent and thought doing ST would result in a child “sleeping”, then I’d want to know the truth too?
I have a bachelor of health science, so I am all about research. No one has scientific evidence to say that ST babies actually sleep. And it’s because they don’t. Factually. In fact we have evidence to prove that they just don’t call out. And I just can’t fathom why the truth isn’t being told, and probably worse of all - why parents who do hear this are ignoring this.
Is it because it’s too painful for them to acknowledge? Is it because they feel foolish? Or is it because they just think both sides are just an opinion and want their ideas of the truth to be correct?
I think about it every day and my heart feels so heavy. You’re doing an incredible job with your two little ones
It breaks my heart my heart to hear about your brother and wife. And it breaks my heart to not say anything to people that I come across as I feel I’m doing a disservice to the child and even the parents. I know if I was a parent and thought doing ST would result in a child “sleeping”, then I’d want to know the truth too?
I have a bachelor of health science, so I am all about research. No one has scientific evidence to say that ST babies actually sleep. And it’s because they don’t. Factually. In fact we have evidence to prove that they just don’t call out. And I just can’t fathom why the truth isn’t being told, and probably worse of all - why parents who do hear this are ignoring this.
Is it because it’s too painful for them to acknowledge? Is it because they feel foolish? Or is it because they just think both sides are just an opinion and want their ideas of the truth to be correct?
I think about it every day and my heart feels so heavy. You’re doing an incredible job with your two little ones
@riseup I think honestly a lot of moms don't have time to do the research and ST people are louder than non-ST people. The ST side has a lot of fear mongering - saying things like your child will be a spoiled brat or super clingy etc if you don't do ST, whereas the non-ST people are saying the hard truth that having a baby is really demanding and hard, but that by being reliable and consistent you can nurture them into independent and kind people. Idk if I had hundreds of people including my closest family members saying the blue pill will ruin my child and a few people saying the blue pill is hard to swallow but "trust me it's better", I'd probably go for the red pill. It's only when you add in some trustworthy people telling me why the red pill isn't a great option, time for me to read up on the pills myself, and my intuition that the red pill isn't right for me, that I would pick the blue pill.
Also definitely some sunk cost bias going on too. I absolutely hate hearing my son cry to my core and I can't imagine the deep level of trauma women must experience doing CIO with a false belief it's the only option. I think the logical human response to that is probably to utterly convince yourself you had no other option.
Breaks my heart too though. I wish more people were educated on infant sleep before becoming parents.
Also definitely some sunk cost bias going on too. I absolutely hate hearing my son cry to my core and I can't imagine the deep level of trauma women must experience doing CIO with a false belief it's the only option. I think the logical human response to that is probably to utterly convince yourself you had no other option.
Breaks my heart too though. I wish more people were educated on infant sleep before becoming parents.
@riseup My Masters is in Family and Child Psychology and honestly with the information I have I can’t fathom possibly doing anything but attachment style parenting.
I agree with what was said that most people don’t do the research and truly don’t know. Unfortunately, at least in cases I know, some people very much choose not to know. It’s a lot easier to hear “hey this doesn’t hurt your baby AND you get all your sleep back doesn’t that sound nice” well yeah of course it does. The old line of “if it sounds to good to be true it probably is” rings true.
Also when you look at it from a financial aspect people will pay a lot of money for a good nights sleep. Hence sleep consultants, sleep training programs, books on sleep training ect. There is absolutely no money to be made from not sleep training your children, no one can profit off you. Thus it makes it easier for those making money to flood the market place with “information” and ideas that ST is not harmful.
Thank you for the support, my little ones are teething and nights have been very long but I wouldn’t have it any other way
I agree with what was said that most people don’t do the research and truly don’t know. Unfortunately, at least in cases I know, some people very much choose not to know. It’s a lot easier to hear “hey this doesn’t hurt your baby AND you get all your sleep back doesn’t that sound nice” well yeah of course it does. The old line of “if it sounds to good to be true it probably is” rings true.
Also when you look at it from a financial aspect people will pay a lot of money for a good nights sleep. Hence sleep consultants, sleep training programs, books on sleep training ect. There is absolutely no money to be made from not sleep training your children, no one can profit off you. Thus it makes it easier for those making money to flood the market place with “information” and ideas that ST is not harmful.
Thank you for the support, my little ones are teething and nights have been very long but I wouldn’t have it any other way