Anyone else walk into a big box store and feel like they’re the only ones awake in some sort of toxic capitalist matrix?

[mackied]

@doubra I feel this. Same situation. I usually shop at the crunchy store, but occasionally need to grab something g from the chain close by. I was especially struck by one mom trying to use her EBT to buy a cart of toxic “food.” I really felt badly- the stuff in her cart is considered healthy by folks who don’t think much about what they consume- Powerade, juices, packaged snacks that tout added nutrients and/or artificially reduced sugar, but it’s all junk. I think it would be helpful if EBT worked more like WIC- healthy, Whole Foods only for the most part. If you bring it up in a related sub, all these big food shills act like you’re some sort of AH for wanting poor people to have to cook (I’d be fine with part of the benefit being delivered boxes of staples and/or vouchers for meals at local kitchens that serve healthy stuff). It’s so disingenuous. Pretty much everyone wants to do right by their family, but between marketing and busy lives, a lot of people still don’t realize they’re being poisoned. Now I’m ranting too…

 

[simonjohn213]

@mackied Unfortunately, I think WIC even could improve on this. The amount of juice that we get in one month is insane. The benefit always goes unused and feels like a waste. My daughter was getting nearly 300 oz of juice even at 1 year old, but it's just so much sugar. She drinks water just fine, and I view juice as a special treat, not a dietary staple. I wish I convert that into money for produce. I'd far rather give her an apple than a cup of juice.

But I do agree EBT is much worse and needs a big overhaul to limit the junk so many kids are consuming. I mean, it's pretty simple to just not cover soda or ice cream even.

 

[bubbles328]

@mackied I’m not even from the US (but have lived there) and one argument people use that resonates with me is that a single mom who needs to work two jobs to pay the bills is extremely short on time to actually cook from scratch. Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m fully aware that eating and feeding your children primarily ultra processed products will damage long term health and create unhealthy eating habits but when it comes to families on assistance, I think this is more of a symptom of a much larger problem. Corporations are too big and powerful and politicians are in their pockets.

 

[mackied]

@bubbles328 From scratch for sure, but that’s why I would like to see a hot meal option (delivered or at close by location). Also, healthy doesn’t have to mean from scratch. I think that’s a common misperception, and a cookbook with easy meals/snacks could be part of an EBT starter et. There are healthy ways to get convenient foods. There are nut butters, noodles, typically, a grocery stores sells reasonably priced roasted chicken, fresh produce doesn’t necessarily have to be prepared- avocados, tomatoes, lettuce, banana, apples, citrus, melon, etc. Cheeses can be sliced and eaten with fruit, grilled, melted to eat with fresh veggies, or used for a hot sandwich. A small amount of good quality deli meat (no nitrates, not an excessive amount of salt) is fine to beef up sandwiches. A black bean and cheese burrito or taco is simple and tasty. Chicken breast is very easy to season and stick in an oven. Baked potatoes are simple. Sardines and tinned oysters are relatively healthy and quite simple to incorporate until meals. Bacon can be laid out on a tray and baked (I prefer it this way). Eggs can be baked inside a hole of a good ingredient bread (this is typical breakfast for my wife). Oatmeal and grits can literally take minutes. Many veggies like carrots, mushrooms, asparagus, and sweet potatoes can simply be washed, coated in oil, seasoned, and roasted in the oven. More involved meals can be saved for days off and/or special occasions. A tiny amount of time saved is not worth the nutrition and health trade offs, especially for kids and folks with health issues.

 

[annmarkerls]

@mackied I agree with you, but I also think that the people who need this THE most, do not have the basic skills to implement this. They might not have anything but a microwave. Any yes, there are ways to make those meals even in the microwave, but a person working multiple jobs does not have the brain power at the end of the day to come home and figure that out. It would be more helpful for the food stamp program to automatically come with one microwave safe pan, a bowl and a spoon or spatula and maybe 5 spices (those tend to be expensive and they really can make or break the meal). Then it should also come with a "sample" 2 week menu that is affordable and includes foods that would be covered by food stamp programs and uses the pans and spices so that its all there. Food staps should be more of a meal kit to be honest. Make the instructions super easy to read so that the older kids can look at them and learn even if Mom or Dad have to work late. I agree that whole foods are simple and nutritious but basic food skills are NOT taught and if we want to break this food cycle, we need to teach the younger generation at the same time as we teach the parents. Home Ec classes should be taught in middle school, not an elective in high school that most opt out of!

 

[mackied]

@annmarkerls In cases where people only have a microwave, I believe they should be able to opt for meals in a healthy, community cafeteria, or to have those meals delivered depending on circumstances, in addition to a lower shopping benefit/delivery of staples such as nut butter, bread, cereal, aseptic milk, oatmeal, seasoning, etc.

 

[omnitude]

@mackied Limiting access to various food items through SNAP has a long and well-documented history of classism and racism. The urge to control the spending of those on government benefits stems directly from the Victorian programs aimed only to help the “deserving poor”.

Research shows most public ideas around the use of SNAP are false. Take judging what that one mom has in her cart for example. Many particularly use their SNAP benefits at the beginning of the month to stock up on non perishable foods and use their remaining funds/cash to buy fresh foods weekly. SNAP does not usually cover a family’s whole food budget.

If we are looking to mitigate the damage done to the public psyche by corporate advertising (SNAP participates are by far not the only ones who buy juice and soda for example), and nudge benefits programs in a healthier direction, there is some evidence that rewarding purchase of whole fresh foods is more effective then controlling the purchase of “junk food”.

It’s easy to judge the individual without knowing their life circumstances.

 

[mackied]

@omnitude I’m judging the program. I think the individual was trying make healthy choices, and is being misled by marketing around the foods I mentioned. The entire family was obese to the point serious health issues come into play. I don’t care what motivated people in the past. I care about how society treats people who need food. Providing healthy choices (which can include items such as maple syrup, sugar, honey, simple ingredient ice cream, and other occasional treats) makes the most sense. A family struggling with nutrition is not going to benefit from processed, empty calories. Stocking up on nonperishables is fine, but those nonperishables could be simple ingredient nut butters, rice, quinoa, oatmeal, grits, raw/roasted nuts, flour, sugar, healthy cooking oils, noodles, aseptic milk, some canned veggies or meat, gallons of water, etc. people on EBT need help, not health problems.

 

[jaenalyn]

@mackied You’re an asshole for thinking you have any right to an opinion of what that woman feeds her family.

 

[mackied]

@jaenalyn No. I’m not judging the woman negatively- I noted her items are what you might think of as decently healthy just going off labels. In other words, she is trying. Having foods that meet objectively healthy dietary criteria be the foods eligible for EBT would help her learn what’s healthier for her family and benefit her entire’s family health throughout their lifetime. Limiting what’s available for EBT would also spur food makers into offering healthy choices in order to capture that spending. She’s in a program that supposed to help people experiencing food insecurity. Providing healthy food options is the only sensible way to run such a program.

 

[jaenalyn]

@mackied She’s in a program that is:

1. A government stimulus for local stores that sell food, generating economic activity where that person lives.
2. Is a moral safety relief valve, for the benefit of society not the individuals in the program.

What is “healthy” is extremely subjective.

Food is morally neutral.

 

[mackied]

@jaenalyn Again, I’m not judging the woman for being on EBT, at all. I’m judging EBT for being a program that provides processed, edible foodstuffs instead of nutritious food. Healthy isn’t really all that subjective. I’m not arguing someone follow keto, veganism, etc. I’m suggesting they don’t consume things that actively harm their health. If you had ten doctors in a room and asked them to judge whether a food should be consumed from a health perspective, and ten say no, unless under special circumstances (sports drinks, for example) it’s not a healthy food. The body will tell you this in a myriad of ways. I’m not even sure why this would be a controversial take

 

[omnitude]

@mackied You are judging her. Your judgement throughout all your comments is that she is too ignorant to make her own food choices and must be forcibly directed using her only access to food as a control measure. Desire to control the choices of the “poor” is a common symptom of other larger societal issues.

EBT isn’t the company making Coke, Welch products, sugary cereal etc. It also shouldn’t be the tool used to control the food choices of those who need the resources. It’s too far down the line to be effective. Views like yours are paternalistic in their view of those who use social safety nets.

If you want food reform, going after the production and marketing of those “food stuffs” is a better direction. Sweeping reform in those areas would benefit everyone who shops at grocery stores and is bombarded by child-centered advertising or false health claims.

 

[mackied]

@omnitude It’s not just her, it’s a lot of the country. People don’t know how to cook anymore, and it’s a time consuming thing to learn. Things like raw meat can be scary. If somebody turns to the government for help, i believe they should receive real help. If you think that’s paternalistic, that’s fine, but I prefer to think of it as looking out for people. Theres a reason we have nutritional standards for school lunches (those there’s room for improvement there). There’s a reason rental units have to meet certain standards to qualify for section 8. That’s not trying to make living choices for those who need rental assistance, it’s to make sure that assistance provides them a proper living environment. I definitely would be in favor of the US approaching food regulation the same way most of Europe does. I think schools should bring back home ec so that the entire population has the skills and knowledge to live a healthier life through nutrition. Poor food knowledge is not just a low earner problem. Its across all demographics. It’s obvious by the number of nutrition related health issues across this country.

 

[jaenalyn]

@mackied Again you think poor people, people on EBT should have their food scrutinized.

I bet the ultra wealthy don’t know how to cook either.

Let’s limit sales of caviar, too much sodium.

You know private jets serve lots of champagne, bad for your liver, let’s make laws against that.

Let’s make sure people eating at Michelin star restaurants know just how many grams of sugar are in their crème brûlée. Maybe they should sit through a class on nutrition first?

 

[mackied]

@jaenalyn Caviar is a super food. The ultra rich are not asking for help, and we likely won’t need to foot their medical bills. That Michelin crème brûlée will be fresh made from ingredients that EBT should be eligible to purchase.

 

[omnitude]

@mackied The second part of this comment is what I was suggesting. Nation- wide reform around production and advertising, as well as broad information access. This gets closer to the root of the issue rather then individualizing blame for a larger social problem.

 

[jaenalyn]

@mackied This is a classic example of Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

Nutrition is an incredibly complex subject. Assuming it is simple means you know less about it than you think.

People are not robots you dump fuel into.

 

[mackied]

@jaenalyn Some foods are simple- ultra processed, artificial sweeteners, additives that are banned in most first world countries, etc

 

[naka]

@jaenalyn But isn't what is patently unhealthy pretty objective?

I think it's a product of our capitalist system and weak regulation.

I used to live in Germany and honestly it was much, much, much harder to find garbage over-processed food like we have here. You always have to go to a really big store, and get it from the "American" section, which always made me really nauseated.

You'd really have to try very hard to get as many processed calories into your diet there.