Parent Child Coercive Cycle Vs attachment/gentle parenting?

@cutin I really appreciate your comment, especially the last paragraph was very helpful. I wonder if she may be on the adhd spectrum, as my husband definitely has it. But she is only 3 so I try not to worry about that and she has been very developmentally typical in all other areas. Sharing how you say certain times this response works and other times this one works helps a lot to break it down like that (ie for whining vs bigger emotions).

Can you share an example of coregulation in the moment that works for you guys? I’ve heard that term honestly used on a spectrum from very intervening to little intervention- anywhere from, “just make sure your vibe is chill but don’t actively interact with them,” to, “try to go over and offer them physical coregualtion like a hug.” My kid tends to escalate more if I try to engage at all when they’re upset (any words of any kind, any touch of any kind). Also, We have tried talking about things she can do when she is angry afterwards ,when she is calm, but she never picks the alternative in the moment (probably been discussing that off and on for several months). I’m wondering if you have any more suggestions there!
 
@acuriousgirl That is because coregulation is overused as a buzzword online, and most people don't actually understand the whole context of it, which is about using your own lower arousal level (you used the term escalation, which I used in my other comment but the actual term is arousal) to lower her arousal level, and/or body-focused or social contact focused ways of triggering oxytocin production.

So some people are using it to mean "comfort" and others are using it to mean "be a calm presence" without understanding how or why that helps and some people have no fucking clue what it means, but they just throw it around because online a lot of people know what the "correct" answer is and will spew it out but they don't have any experience using it for themselves, it's just words they are using for internet points.

Yes I will come back with examples but from experience I will spend 1-2 hours here writing and it's nearly 1am where I am, so, I will leave this tab open and come back to it :) Just quickly the place that I got the most practical tips for this was Conscious Discipline by Becky A Bailey. It's very cheesy and "infomercial" like but it's very, very good.
 
@krafterkaren That's the right program but I honestly just used the website/YouTube videos/podcasts where the author was interviewed. I've heard the book is good but I haven't read it.
 
@cutin I started reading it, you're not kidding about her presenting in a cheesy infomercial way. She makes some very good actionable points but the presentation did make me groan and roll my eyes a few times.
 
@acuriousgirl This is my favorite video example of co regulation. It blends the approachs nicely where the parent isn't reinforcing the behaviors with lots of attention or by trying to make the feelings go away (distraction, offering candy, fun activity etc...).

They are staying present, modeling emotion regulation, and showing the child they will love them and accept them no matter what.

As long as the adult gives the child more and higher quality attention at other times when the child is calm, this won't reinforce the behavior. This is called differential reinforement or compassionate extinction in the research literature.

Video of how to respond to big feelings in the moment: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?id=100044997707990&story_fbid=3342633189145394 I cannot speak to this person's page or advice other than this single specific video.

Video of type of high quality interactions to have during other times more frequently (ideal ratio is at least 5 of these types of interactions during positive or neutral emotions for one time of responding to challenging behavior and emotions).
Again, other than this single video, I can't vouch for this page or persons advice.
 
@acuriousgirl I'm wondering if modelling would help here? What if you did something that you do you calm down without really engaging with her, but in the same space? Sitting and taking some deep breaths, or closing your eyes and calmly and quietly counting down from 10?

Just an idea, YMMV!
 
@acuriousgirl OK so coregulation in the moment.

First of all, keep everyone safe, so if I need to protect other people/resources from damage then I would remove the child to another area.

Triggering oxytocin > Think anything you'd do to provide physical comfort.

NB, some of these may feel inherently rewarding and so you may wish to reserve them for certain situations. For me personally, it's important to me NOT to present these things as conditional or rewards, but I probably do naturally adjust what I offer based on how I'm feeling and what the situation is.
  • Hugging, patting, stroking
  • Making soothing sounds, maybe singing or ssshing
  • Maybe a familiar song that is associated with comfort
  • Rocking or swaying
  • Wrapping in a blanket
  • Nursing (though more relevant for younger toddlers!)
Getting my own arousal level lower is a process I have worked on. (nervous system not sexual, just in case anyone was confused)
  • ADHD meds help (I have diagnosed ADHD. May be relevant for other conditions e.g. anxiety, perimenopause.)
  • Deep breaths help a lot.
  • Taking time to physically notice the sensations inside my body that I commonly experience when my child's arousal level is raised. For me, this feels like there are "fizzy" bubbles like carbonation rising in my body. My heart rate will also raise and my head can start to feel pressure or full almost like the "foam" is building up there. This is subjective. Some signs of arousal are biological such as heart rate, respiration rate, hands will feel colder. But mostly this exercise it just about being able to recognise for me what arousal feels like because ADHD gives me poor awareness over my internal body sensations. Knowing what it feels like helps me recognise when it occurs and also helps me recognise the feeling of it going back to a calmer baseline and levelling back out, so I can try out different techniques.
  • Grounding techniques like for panic attacks - looking for different items in the room using my senses.
  • Mantras or affirmations to remind me of useful things such as "this is not an emergency" or "download calm".
I am now at a stage where if I need to, I can go to another room to self-regulate and come back and stay in a more regulated state, whereas previously I used to try going away to self-regulate, had no idea what that meant but would return when I felt calmer, be faced with my child's state of arousal and instantly shoot back up again to the higher arousal state, and didn't understand why this happened to me.

Reframing what is happening with my child and/or what my role is in that also helps. I used to read a lot of advice about how (the parent) needs to be confident/in control (of themselves not necessarily controlling the child)/calm/positive and feel frustrated because the same advice never really explained what to do if you're not or how to get there. From what I've learnt now, I think this is simply because there is no one magic answer, and different things will work for different people.

Some things which have helped me though are:
  • Having a specific response to go to - this is where something like time out or another generic/unrelated consequence can be helpful, because it is predictable and decided on in advance, rather than me reacting in the moment. However, I've also found Janet Lansbury's responses, How To Talk, and the Conscious Discipline stuff helpful here - the response doesn't need to be a punishment but it's OK if it is.
  • Understanding that it's not my job to make my child agree with or feel happy about the boundary that I set.
  • Understanding I don't have to "fix" them being upset and they are capable of calming down on their own and that it can take time, and that is OK.
  • Reframing as my child is not giving me a hard time, they are struggling.
  • Imagining myself as a kind of "calm rock" for my child to cling onto and flail at.
  • Imagining my child as a scared, aggressive wild animal and I'm trying to communicate that I'm not a threat.
  • Understanding boundaries as something I do/control, not a request I make of my child that they have to comply with.
  • Checking the time. Time feels very slow when in a higher arousal state, so it feels like they have been screaming for 20 minutes when it's probably only 2 minutes.
  • Understanding that when they are aroused they aren't in a good place to reason/learn/understand, so not engaging with them trying to justify or argue.
Then, the "fake it" things which sort of mimic me being in a lower arousal state but are conscious things I can do with my body language - most of these I got from Conscious Discipline, some from Self-Reg. The great thing is a lot of these will actually help me get into a lower arousal state too.
  • Get low, down to their level or lower
  • Be physically close, within touching distance. Maybe add physical touch e.g. a hand on their arm/back.
  • Lower my shoulders
  • Relax the muscles of my face (Self-Reg calls this "Soft eyes")
  • Be in front of them and take very obvious, clear deep breaths rather than telling them to breathe - they will often mimic you automatically.
  • Make my voice quiet, soft in tone, gentle, lower, speak slowly.
  • Avoid making demands, defending myself verbally, engaging with arguments, explaining why they are wrong. All I do verbally is reflect back or repeat a phrase like "We can go back in when you are feeling calmer, we need to keep everyone safe." or sometimes make observations (conscious discipline again).
We have tried talking about things she can do when she is angry afterwards ,when she is calm, but she never picks the alternative in the moment

That's normal because you're just talking about things and not actually practising them in the environment, so once she's in a higher arousal state she's not using the section of her brain where she stores that information, she's using the section of the brain where she stores more visceral/emotional memories (limbic system). I am unsure if you're referring to tools that she can use to self-regulate such as breathing exercises, counting, grounding exercises, drinking water, stomping, wall pushes etc. For these it helps to work them into your daily routine in fun ways when she's not escalated - that's why shows like Daniel Tiger incorporate songs like “When you feel so mad that you want to roar, take a deep breath and count to four.” Or games like blowing out candles on an imaginary birthday cake or blowing up a pretend balloon - Conscious Discipline has some like this. Making them familiar and positive means that she'll lodge them into that more emotional centre of her brain and be able to access them even when she's escalated. For a grounding technique, one which we use recently is looking for 4 orange things / 3 blue things /2 yellow things (I just make up random colours) - this helps a lot and even my 2yo joins in.

If you mean more things like how to handle the situation which escalated and exploded into the big feelings in the first place, she may just need to be calmer and need a bit longer to connect before you discuss it. I got better at recognising this with practice, but if she's not receptive to discussing it, she probably needs more time. If she is very happy to discuss it, but then doesn't use it the next time, the best thing to do is for you to be proactive with that plan and scaffold it for her, because she is only little and she will likely have forgotten totally about that conversation by the next time. So just to use a random example - if the episode started because she wanted something in a store and you said no, keep it in mind or even write it down somewhere so you'll remember, and before you next go to a store, make a plan. Maybe even specifically plan to go to a store so you can try out the new plan. Let her know on that day, we are going to the store today, what's our plan? Remind her of your expectation/set her expectation - we are only going to buy X, or we are not going to buy toys. You want her to walk close to you and use an inside voice. Remind her again of your expectation right before you go in. Also, consider setting her up for success e.g. don't even walk down the toy aisle, or go to a store which has fewer toys to practice and establish those "store behaviours". You can also make a back up plan for if she really, really wants something and is struggling - for example, take a picture of the item or write it on a list and save that list for her birthday or Christmas wish list, for ideas to send to family etc.

Setting the expectation in advance helps her remember what you want her to do, and crucially, it helps you recognise when she DOES behave well (because often we are distracted and only react when they behave poorly). This gives you the chance to really big that up and praise her and recognise that she has done well in the store. You can also praise her during the trip and point out what she is doing well, not only afterwards.
 
@cutin I really appreciate you writing all this down! I think what’s hard is offering any physical coregulation you mentioned makes it worse. Maybe after she has reached the peak and then come down a little bit I can offer her burrito time or something, but nothing helps in the moment. Most of the things on the Becky list seem to make it worse- eye contact, getting down at their level, moving closer, etc. if I try to take my own deep breaths without her (for myself but also to model to her), she will literally scream at me to stop taking deep breaths!!! Smart kid lol.

I have been trying a new thing where I close my eyes so I don’t “see her” bc someone recommended it might decrease her feelings of shame, and that can be more successful at allowing me to get closer in the moment.

Maybe that’s why I feel so confused because those things are supposed to work and they don’t 😭😭

But I really appreciate you typing out the rest! Very helpful and I’ll try some of it!
 
@acuriousgirl I don't think I'd be able to use much in the first list when my kid is super dysregulated. I do more waiting it out and being the calmer presence.

You might like The Occuplaytional Therapist, they post some useful examples and interesting content in general IMO.
 
@cutin Thanks for the long write up. Very helpful. We do some of this but it gave me some new ideas. Especially your fake it list is helpful.

Setting the expectation in advance helps her remember what you want her to do, and crucially, it helps you recognise when she DOES behave well

This is something that we've been doing with my son with great success. It works so much better when you set expectations ahead of time and let him rephrase it by himself (we're in a trilingual household so if I say something in my mother tongue to my son, he tends to repeat it to my wife in Cantonese or in English).
 
@acuriousgirl I think that giving problem behaviors attention becomes a bigger issue when that is the primary way a child can get attention from their caregiver. If a child gets lots of attention and 1-on-1 time normally, then immediate parental connection/correction when they do something wrong isn’t necessarily going to teach them that that is the best way get attention and therefore reinforce the problem behavior. On the other hand, if a child is usually not getting the focused attention of their parent/caregiver, but they get immediate attention when they do something “bad,” then they are going to learn that acting out is the best way for them to get what they want.
 
@smartgeek Yes! I think it can be quite hyper-specific as well sometimes. Like I have noticed that my kids pick up extremely quickly on rules like "No whining about TV or there won't be any TV" whereas if I am having a very bad ADHD day and give in to whining, then they are MUCH more likely to whine over the next few days given that it worked that one time.
 
@acuriousgirl I mean, the other issue is that every kid is so different and will react to parenting styles differently. Or it could be that your daughter is craving more a focused kind of attention or that in that moment, she’s feeling like you’re not paying attention to her.
 
@acuriousgirl Kazdin says that it is a mystery why almost every kid does not have really bad behavior since most parents give bad behavior lots of attention. I assume it is hard to get a grant to study why some kids engage in good behavior in this situation.
 
@continualseeker Interesting, I took that as a tongue in cheek comment (he says it in the course, doesn't he? Maybe it's worded differently).

I thought what he was saying there is that none of this is clear cut, we are raising humans not programming robots, you cannot put in an easy standard response and get a consistent result out. However, if you are currently finding that you are not getting the results you want, these techniques are more likely to be effective than other things, so they are worth trying. But it is certainly not a black and white situation.
 
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