Parent Child Coercive Cycle Vs attachment/gentle parenting?

[samuela2g]

@acuriousgirl You’ve gotten so many wonderful comments. One last thought that your post sparked for me (in a clinical psychologist but I work mostly w teens/adults):
You said something about emotions being “safe.” I think we communicate to our children that having strong emotions is safe in a number of ways- sticking by them while they’re going through it, modeling healthy acceptance and regulation, AND yes showing them that their emotions don’t scare us by not responding strongly to them. When you acknowledge your kids tantrum and then walk a little bit away (not angrily, not shaming, just calmly), you start to communicate to a growing child that they can have and regulate their emotion with their own skill set, in their own way, in their own time, and you are there for them in a general sense but they don’t need you literally holding them and rocking them to get through it. But it’s a journey, right? A three year old still need us to do that often. But not ALWAYS. and over time, less and less. We show them we are confident in their safety and skills. I don’t think of walking away as abandonment- I think it can be a strong communication of “your emotions are safe to have. I believe in you. I’ll be back to check in.”

And by choosing WHICH strong emotions we do the hold and rock, and which emotions/situations we let them handle on their own, we also communicate our family values and transmit our judgment skills to them. The nice thing about this is you don’t need to get perfectionistic about which things you do which for- have a general policy in your head, try not to be crazy inconsistent, but if you go with your gut in a centered, values-based way, your values WILL be communicated. Trust the process!

I’m just thinking through this myself, so just kinda tossing ideas out. Ultimately I have no ideological problem with ignoring problem behaviors. I don’t think it damages children to kindly ignore tantrums, especially when the cozy validating and co-regulating just isn’t working. And I’m the coziest validator there is! I think everyone needs a mix of approaches. As long as YOU hold in your heart that strong emotions aren’t dangerous or bad, that will be communicated.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@samuela2g I really appreciate your comment here! I think you’re right, I forget about communicating that aspect of safety.

 

[havevisions]

@acuriousgirl I think there’s a middle ground. You don’t need to ignore unwanted behavior, but you also don’t need to invite it. For example, when my 2.5 year old starts melting down, it’s either over pretty quickly or it’s massive. It’s easy to tell which it will be in a few minutes, so when she crosses the line into mega meltdown, I say “I get that you’re (feeling.) I’m going to be right here but I’m going to give you space to feel that and stop responding. When you’re ready, let me know.”

 

[acuriousgirl]

@havevisions How does she respond when you do that? My kid will scream at me and then sometimes start throwing things

 

[havevisions]

@acuriousgirl Mine gets escalated when I say things like “I hear you” or “I know you really want to…” so my only choice that helps me stay calm is to stop responding. She stays upset for another 10-15 minutes or so, usually.

 

[fender57]

@acuriousgirl I'm going to give an opinion-based, rather than data-based response: What parenting strategy works for you really comes down to your values. What do you value in developing your relationship with your child? What do you hope to show them and teach them? About you, about themselves, about other people, about the world..?

This might sound kind of redundant to say, but what ends up "working" for you is just whatever strategy you feel best conveys your values to your child.

I know gentle/attachment parenting gets a lot of flack and is oftentimes ridiculed, but that doesn't reallly bother me because overall that strategy suits my ideals and values best. Does that mean my kid always behaves exactly as desired? No, but my goal isn't to extract perfect behavior from her. Is her behavior frustrating or bewildering at times? Sure. She's 3. But I'm not dogmatic about it. If I notice anything I'm doing isn't working for us, I'll try to change my approach.

Ultimately, you aren't going to be the only person in their life or the only one shaping their thoughts and behaviors. I think as long as you are satisfied with the way you engage with your child during the time you spend together, that's what counts. Do what works well for you. There's no need to make everyone's lives harder in order to chase down some abstract ideal.

I don't personally think there's anything demeaning about using classical conditioning techniques to encourage pro-social behavior. If anything, you could totally use those techniques in conjunction with gentle/attachment parenting. Holding boundaries (i.e by leaving the room or withholding attention) might leave your kid feeling distressed in the moment, but if you have a secure attachment with them, it shouldn't impact your relationship or their emotional development in the long term.

 

[waterflow]

@acuriousgirl Ross Greene's CPS method is a more concrete, applied strategy in the non-behaviourist parenting philosophy world. Maybe having a more step-by-step method would align better with your "gentle" parenting philosophy. LIVES IN THE BALANCE. His books The Explosive Child and Raising Human Beings detail the method and there is a FB group called Plan B that goes into more examples and application of the method.

I think a big difference of non-behaviour-based parenting philosophies (like Ross Greene CPS or Mona Delahooke, etc) is the idea of long-term parent-child relationship versus short-term behaviour changes. I would say non-behaviour based parenting philosophies are based more in humanist ideals of a person. Only you can decide how your philosophy aligns. I have been anti-behaviourism my whole life. It's always rubbed me the wrong way. I remember in elementary school hating star charts and writing kids names on boards when they interrupted the class and countless other overt and subtle reward/punishment (differential reinforcement) strategies. As an adult, I knew I didn't want that for my kids. Most of us then go towards the "gentle" parenting philosophy but often get caught up in the, "ok I know what I don't want to do, but what do I actually do?" cycle.

Most children can be conditioned like dogs using behaviourism methods to change a behaviour X. That doesn't tell you what effect you've had on parent-child relationship, child self-worth, child feelings, etc. Just purely from an outside observer of externalized behaviours, you can change most people's behaviours using reward/punishment or differential reinforcement. For some people, behaviourism does not work (i.e. they will actually not change their behaviour based on your response of reward/punishment). So, for the people that behaviourism works on, you as the parent, still have to decide if that is how you want to parent your child. If the philosophy is wrong to you, then the method working to change externalized behaviours is irrelevant.

At least Ross Greene does give a method, albeit a challenging method to apply to very young kids. Personally, I found the strategies in Laura Markham's book Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids to work well for the young years and leads into Ross Greene's CPS method for older years. But, it also requires a lot of radical acceptance of where your child is at and a lot of time allowing the existence of difficult behaviours when our world tends not to be set up to allow such things for gradual development and change.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@waterflow I don’t even remotely care about gentle parenting or need to do gentle parenting. I updated my post to reflect that.

I appreciate you sharing that resource! I actually read the explosive child and while the idea was super helpful, it still doesn’t explain how to actually manage the child during the meltdown or before or after. And his examples were mostly older kids . However it did help in some aspects so I appreciate it. So it sounds like those additional resources you named would be great for me to see if more detailed applications are listed.

I will also look into Laura’s book thank you!!

 

[waterflow]

@acuriousgirl Good luck! My personal experience with meltdowns is that you don't do anything during them. You are just there. Or, you are actively protecting yourself or siblings from injury.

I adjust the environment as much as possible to prevent meltdowns, but once the child is in fight/flight, your job is to keep everyone physically safe. After the meltdown, I just carry on the day. Occasionally, there are things to discuss maybe the next day or week about making a support plan for the next time but generally, kiddo already knows what's happening and it's just been a fail on my part in adjusting the environment and anticipating the triggers. My nervous system get very triggered by the meltdown such that I become clumsy afterwards and my body feels heavy so the rest of the day looks like extremely low demands on myself (no cleaning, ordering in food, resting, etc.). Sensory support is one of our biggest helpers for preventing meltdowns. It's the number one support tool for my neurodivergent family.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@waterflow There’s many times where she is on the verge of a meltdown and I don’t know how to respond. Meant she screams about something that she is frustrated about, like she yells about not being able to get a toy to work. Lately I’ve just been taking to ignoring it per the ABC class but the attachment parenting stuff I feel like recommended giving it attention. Then she can escalate whether I give her attention or not. If she can’t get her sweatshirt on for example and we need to leave for school, I’m not sure what to do. I try to ask if she wants help and I say I’ll close my eyes. Sometimes she screams, sometimes not. I don’t know if I should interrupt before she escalates, but when she has still yelled (therefore reinforcing the yelling). Or if I should wait till she has the complete tantrum. But that’s hard because of course she is upset the sweatshirt is stuck on her! And she screams at me or tries to hit me bc she is so upset. We try to practice putting on sweatshirt at other times. That’s just an example

 

[waterflow]

@acuriousgirl My eldest did not have meltdowns due to frustration with doing something (her meltdowns were more sensory related and social overwhelm). But my 3 year old is all over that action! I think of it as his drive for autonomy combined with an intense need to be independent on tasks that are beyond his current abilities. Very frustrating for him. It spans everything from toys, to clothing, to opening and closing the car door to how food is served, etc. It goes on and on.

I tend to offer support quickly no matter how he has communicated his frustration (yelling, whining, crying, throwing, pushing etc.). I try to respond to the underlying message. Sometimes I say something like, "oh the car isn't moving in the way you expected! That is so frustrating! I wonder if I could help with that." Sometimes this will be enough for him to calm and offer up the toy for me to help. Other times, he's too far gone and he'll scream, "Just let me! Just let me!" or "Go away!" I might say, "I'll just be over here. I'm here for a snuggle or to help." And then I just move away but stay in the room. I might carry on with a task I'm doing or I might just sit on the ground and chill while he's thrashing/yelling/screaming/crying.

I don't find there is a one size fits all. Sometimes his nervous system is open for help and other times it's too triggered and he's just going to do the meltdown no matter what I say, so I try to reduce what I say and just be a physical presence. I also put in ear plugs so I reduce the chance of my own nervous system being triggered. That allows me to maintain my connection with him instead of completely checking out or ignoring his distress.

Main support tool I have for this type of frustration for him is to provide as much time as possible for all his tasks that he likes to do. Occasionally at night i will hide a toy (usually something of his older sister's) that has caused intense repeated frustration that is beyond his ability and have another enjoyable toy strewed for the next morning to allow him some positive engagement with something. If clothing is a main issue, I might try to buy some more toddler friendly clothing that can be put on more successfully (maybe bigger neck holes). I lay his pants out on the floor with the tag at the back and he is able to put them on himself, but if they are bunched up or folded he can't get them on. So, maybe looking for where you can scaffold ahead of time so kiddo can access the activity independently but it's set at a level that will allow more success.

 

[cutin]

@acuriousgirl CPS as described by Ross Greene is extremely difficult to do with a 3.5yo. You can use aspects of it for sure, the ideas that I think are helpful for all situations are:

• Considering situations which are likely to trigger "explosive" behaviour and looking for patterns, because these generally are predictable, or at the very least, there are SOME predictable ones you can work on.
• Not addressing explosion behaviour itself, but looking at the preceding situation as an expectation my child can't meet.
• Reframe of won't to can't (and thinking about skills they might need to meet that expectation)
• Being proactive. Not trying to work on behaviour right in the moment because the child will be too escalated to take it in anyway. Thinking about it before it happens the next time.
• Working on 1-2 things at a time, rather than trying to tackle everything at once.
• Looking for the child's perspective, not making assumptions, not jumping to adult conclusions. Being curious.
• Creative win-win problem solving. (Some people argue this isn't always possible and maybe not - but I love it in principle, and honestly I haven't used it enough to come across a problem I can't solve yet, but the problem at 3.5 is it will be extremely difficult to get the child's perspective directly).

And yes he does not offer any advice at all for what to actually do during an "explosion" to borrow his term. The assumption, especially on the FB group, seems to be that if you plan C everything except for 1-2 things to Plan B, you'll magically have no more explosions and that is not realistic. To be fair, Ross Greene himself doesn't say this. I think in reality his approach is that you're having the explosive behaviour anyway, you're dealing with it somehow, it doesn't matter at all what you do towards the explosive behaviour because the explosive behaviour isn't a conscious choice and you won't solve it by changing your approach to it so you may as well just do whatever you are doing now and let's try to reduce the explosions in the first place. And for anyone seriously struggling with a very explosive child, which is who the book was written for originally, this actually will be a huge improvement so that makes sense. For most people in the context of toddler tantrums, I think other tools are much more helpful than this one.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@cutin This is VERY helpful and validating. I felt like maybe I was missing somethin lol.

 

[the_precious_one]

@acuriousgirl Can you say more about what you feel isn’t working, perhaps with an example or two?

 

[kemar]

@acuriousgirl This comment explains a common mistake that parents frequently make when trying to gentle parent.

By giving more attention to challenging emotions and behavior, parents sometimes accidentally teach/conditioned their child that having those behaviors is how they "ask" for your undivided attention/affection etc...

https://www.reddit.com/r/ECEProfessionals/comments/1d5f385/comment/l6qayw6

 

[acuriousgirl]

@kemar I think I completely agree and the person telling me about the ABCs / that pattern illuminated that trying to be attuned to her while she is dysregulated is teaching her that she gets more attention. Made total sense! what I’m confused about is why all the gentle parenting stuff RECOMMENDS doing that. They recommend getting down at eye level, reflecting the emotion, offering physical comfort. Do they not? I feel like every gentle parenting person I follow suggest that and then their kid “immediately calms down.”

Although I don’t feel like I’m misunderstanding experts on it. It almost feels like they’re emphasizing the wrong thing? Maybe I’ve missed certain emphasis that would have rounded out my view. But even like Dr Becky good inside strongly emphasizes the emotional or physical connection at first.

 

[kemar]

@acuriousgirl "Gentle parenting" as taught by Tik Tok etc...has no evidence-base. My opinion is that it's parents who often experienced harsh discipline or felt unloved and are overcompensating by doing what intuitively feels right to them.

While Dr. Becky Bailey has more credibility, her only program that has any research support is a classroom management program. Professionals already understand behavioral principles in most cases, but may genuinely dislike children who have many behaviors, making it hard for them to build a relationship. Her techniques help the adults learn compassion and then they are more likely to provide the child with positive attention, which in some cases is not happening at all for any behaviors.

I usually try to look up programs on an evidence-based clearinghouse. Programs listed on reputable clearinghouses will have multiple studies proving they work. https://www.cebc4cw.org/ Things that don't show up that sometimes surprise people are Alfie Cohn's Punished by Rewards, or even Daniel Siegals parenting class--both often recommended by "gentle parenting" advocates.

Words to search that increase the likelihood advice will be based in evidence include "positive parenting" or "authoritative parenting."

 

[anayat11011]

@kemar Dr Becky also is not a trained child therapist. She's an adult therapist who decided to work backwards from her experience with adults in therapy. She openly says this. The problem is the population you're starting with are people who struggled as kids. You're not dealing with a generalizable population. don't get me wrong I really like Dr Becky and subscribe to a lot of her beliefs. But it's worth nothing that she's reverse engineering her work with unhappy adults.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@kemar I really appreciate this context, especially about Dr Becky. Makes sense how she got big.

But also now this is incredibly frustrating. I am upset I wasted all this time and wish I had found this stuff in the first place.

I’ll check out the link you recommended and unfollow all these parenting people

 

[becomingabeliever]

@acuriousgirl Just saw your edit. I was also raised by cluster b parent. In my experience the best thing you can do is get therapy, do the work to heal your own childhood trauma (it all comes flooding back once you have kids in my experience). I have focused on regulating myself. I cant give that to my kids if i dont have it, and my mom couldnt give it to me. I have gotten help and it’s really improved. Dont be afraid to take time for yourself so you can stay calm in the moment with your kid.