Parent Child Coercive Cycle Vs attachment/gentle parenting?

[dustinx]

@acuriousgirl Oh man, that’s the question, isn’t it? I usually leave him a minute or two, try again, and if he’s still hitting leave again. I give him 1-2 tries before setting a five-minute timer before trying again. I’ll verbally check in a couple times throughout and let him know we’ll try again next a few minutes. Eventually he burns himself out, and I can usually tell because he’ll have a few seconds of calm between yells or his crying will change and I can tell he’s shifting from tantruming to a crying where he’s open to being physically comforted or interacted with without hitting.

He honestly just gets in moods sometimes where I can almost tell he’s going to escalate, and it’s like he needs the escalation and eventual release. I’ve tried redirecting that energy (e.g. toys or pillows designated for getting his anger out), but it’s never worked. Locking my kid in his room while he screams at the top of his lungs doesn’t feel like great parenting, I’ll be honest. But he knows he’s safe and loved and the whole time, at least?

 

[galaxyquxxn]

@ebuzi What is ABA? Is this a common term that the average parent knows?

 

[aheyrondedon]

@galaxyquxxn I think it’s Applied Behavior Analysis. My friend’s son has autism and gets ABA Therapy.

 

[cutin]

@galaxyquxxn Would add context to the other poster - it's very common in the US and not so much in other parts of the world.

On the internet it has a bad reputation because some adult autistic people have negative experiences of it as children. It has historically been used in some harmful ways - modern ABA practice has moved away from this. There is still some debate, but it's not clear cut because a lot of the arguments against are very mixed up with some referring to outdated practice and some referring to ABA as a whole concept (but this is all getting away from the science based angle).

 

[continualseeker]

@ebuzi

....I just get up and walk away. I TELL her I’m going to do this though. “You are not listening, I am going to get up”. When she does have tough moments, I do not acknowledge her behavior “stop crying” “stop hitting” mostly because this is futile. But also because we tell her what to do instead in those moments.

In my view that is not the Yale course method. The first thing you do is talk to the kid. Talk is attention. That's the opposite the what the course says to do.

 

[sara156]

@ebuzi So helpful! Thank you for chiming in. Is there by chance any good book you’d recommend that influenced your parenting style?

 

[ebuzi]

@sara156 So, honestly - there’s not a parenting book that I have come across that is like “ABA for parents of neurotypical children” but honestly I’ve not looked much as I’m trained as a BCBA. However, I absolutely love the book Hunt, Gather, Parent as a supplement for us. I’ve read it twice and my husband has read it.

I know this book gets flack on this sub, but I really do like the tips and perspective she gives in the book. They feel honest and effective and not like I’m “faking” parenting.

Also - parenting is just so hard. I’ve picked up my meditation practice back up and it’s helped. I’m generally very good at not yelling due to my training. But we recently added #2 and I’ve felt my stress and specifically my fight or flight response go up dramatically. This has helped me keep that more in check.

 

[emmy0922]

@acuriousgirl This is just an opinion and I’m not super familiar with the ABCs. But when I was teaching preschool (at a RIE based preschool, which is often gets conflated with gentle parenting), us teachers often talked about how very well intentioned parents often missed the mark with “gentle parenting” or RIE. They would be empathetic and acknowledge feelings but when it came to set the boundaries and keep them, they often had trouble. And in turn they became permissive and their children would then begin to feel unmanageable to them.

It might help you to look up permissive vs authoritative vs authoritarian parenting. I think the goal modern parents have is to be authoritative but it’s a delicate balance and we often miss the mark.

At 3.5, she’s at the age where you can ask her if she wants company or assistance in the middle of a tantrum. For example, my daughter often needs a hug to settle down. Just because I’m giving her a hug, doesn’t mean I’m giving into her tantrum. I’m still upholding whatever boundary I’ve set. Some kids want complete space and others just want you near by. I’ve found when kids just want you near by, what helps is to start tidying. I know that sounds strange but often they’ll want to mirror your calmness. I’ll straighten up the couch, fold some laundry and check in every now and then to see if her needs have changed.

I hope this helps in some way. My daughter is the same age and it is no walk in the park.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@emmy0922 I’ve looked up the difference between those three but it is still unclear to me what I’m supposed to do in the moments when she is super escalated.

When I try to talk to her or ask her anything or reflect her anything, she just screams back and it seems to escalate her more. Giving space is helpful but sometimes it takes her a while to deescalate with the space so then I don’t know if I’m doing it right then either.

The comment about being close but tidying is very helpful thank you! Great idea for a go-to in those moments. Makes sense that it’s helpful modeling .

I feel like the issue isn’t necessarily that I don’t follow through on the boundaries but it clicked for me when someone said the attention I give when I’m trying to “attune” is that reinforcement and I was like shit. So now I feel like if I attune at all then I’m reinforcing bad stuff but then I’m like if I don’t attune will my kid feel safe and loved? So ya

 

[cutin]

@acuriousgirl The goal isn't that she will be able to deescalate instantly at 3.5. It's OK if it takes her a while, and if talking/reflecting isn't helping, then it's not helping. Children learn self-regulation by having many, many, many experiences where they experience an overwhelming emotion and then, after a time, they are OK again. What happens to get from "not OK" to "OK" largely doesn't matter except that if they are being terrorised to put them into a freeze/fawn state (think: Stop crying or I'll hit you) then they are not actually OK and it will take them much longer to return to a safe baseline.

If you want an option that is not talking but is also not just leaving, you could try co-regulation, which is never really explained, or not in-depth, because it seems to be magically assumed you will know what it means? But honestly the simple explanation sounds stupid - you have to feel calm yourself and be in your child's presence and that will magically send zen vibes to your child.*

You might actually get a lot out of this book - I find the title confusing and hard to remember, but I did remember the term "shouldstorm" and I think "shouldstorm" is EXACTLY what you're experiencing now, where you're stuck between two opposing "shoulds" each claiming that you'll cause some kind of adverse effect if you pick the other, and in actual fact it's probably not that high stakes. I have not actually read the whole book but I read about 30% of it and the science is sound from what I could see.

https://theprimarycarer.com/shouldstorm/

* NB - the actual explanation is that there are no magical zen vibes, it's all just the fact that humans and animals constantly calibrate our nervous systems based on nonverbal signals of threat or safety within the environment. This is supposedly highly sensitive to other humans - and it works both ways around. (It's what people mean when they say horses smell fear). So in fact, if your childhood contained messages that a person being in an escalated state means that something scary is going to happen, then you're probably unconsciously recognising her escalated level as a threat, and so you're getting (slightly) escalated yourself. You will not feel calm, you will feel internally anxious or like an emergency is happening. Try noticing the physical sensations in your body next time this happens. You likely want it to stop ASAP which is why you may be trying strategies like validating emotions. However, if your nervous system is escalated then your nonverbal body language will be communicating that there is a threat. It could possibly be that she is picking up on this which is why it seems to make her worse. Or, honestly, it might just be annoying? Sometimes when you're pissed off you don't want to explain or reason it out with somebody!

But anyway, the alternative is if you can get to a state either through reframing what is happening with her and genuinely feeling absolutely fine because you know that she is OK and will be OK and it's not an emergency, then your nervous system is not escalated and your body language is much calmer and more likely to communicate safety. Think about if you have ever been in a confusing or scary situation - it's much more reassuring for someone to take charge and be calm, confident and directive, regardless of whether their overt body language is assertive or reassuring - someone could be shouting orders OR holding your arm and telling you "you can do this", and be more reassured by them than someone who is clearly scared themselves but who is saying "It's OK, we're going to be OK" or who is shouting in a stressed way. So the idea of co-regulation is about letting your own level of regulation (escalation) influence hers and bring it back to baseline, rather than her being escalated, you being escalated and you wind each other up and up higher and higher.

There are also other physical tools of co-regulation such as skin to skin contact, pressure (e.g. hugging, rubbing, patting) and movement - essentially anything you'd do to a crying baby to soothe them. That's more to do with oxytocin production because oxytocin counteracts adrenaline/cortisol and helps lower arousal (communicate safety). But the part where you just physically are present with them won't work very well unless you are less escalated than they are. You can "fake" some of the body language stuff which is helpful too. But I'm getting way way too deep here and I need to go to bed. But yeah, it bothers me hugely the way people throw around "just co-regulate!" and never explain what that actually means.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@cutin I appreciate you explaining all that out. Thank you!

 

[cutin]

@acuriousgirl Happy to chat more/answer questions because it was a total gamechanger for me - I have ADHD and I really struggled with my own emotional regulation until I started learning about this stuff. I do think a lot of advice is written with the assumption that everyone has a totally regulated nervous system at all times and that is...extremely not the case.

(But, will reply tomorrow because I am in Europe and I need to go to bed!)

 

[dustinx]

@cutin I find this a really helpful comment, especially just recognizing that whatever you’re doing to help them calm is not going to work instantly, and that allowing them the experience of being overwhelmed and then getting to ok is the teaching part. I feel like so much of what I’ve read or the scripts I’ve tried don’t address the time period where the tactics don’t work and the kid is still escalated, and as a parent, you’re just sitting there like, now what? It’s helpful to focus on just getting them (and you) through the storm without them feeling like they’re being threatened.

The shouldstorm really resonates. I just made a comment further up (or down?) about the frustration of being between two shoulds and doing both is not an option!

 

[cutin]

@dustinx I like the How To Talk app for this reason - it has a button to hit which says "Help!! I've tried everything and none of it is working!"

 

[emmy0922]

@acuriousgirl Huh, that is interesting about the attuning reinforcing the behavior. In my experience, the attuning does the opposite! I think a lot of it is trial and error and situational. There is no sure fire way to deescalate because it’s all nuanced.

Like in an instance where my daughter is being physically aggressive, maybe attuning too much could reinforce the behavior? In those situations, I tell her that I’m walking away and I will not let her hurt me. And if it’s too hard for her not to be physical, she can settle her body down in her room on her own. Same if she’s being aggressive with the dog.

If your daughter is too far gone, just being near and checking in is fine. I can’t remember where I heard it but ages ago I was listening to a podcast about the structure of tantrums and basically it goes nuclear one last time before it starts to tone down.

In a little while I will send some info about authoritative parenting.

 

[alivingearth]

@acuriousgirl

When I try to talk to her or ask her anything or reflect her anything, she just screams back and it seems to escalate her more. Giving space is helpful but sometimes it takes her a while to deescalate with the space so then I don’t know if I’m doing it right then either.

My kid often gets more disregulated with direct interaction. So I'll sit and model the healthy behaviors that we're trying to teach.

"Wow, I'm having a lot of feelings right now! I really need a deep breath....in...out.... I'm going to count to ten...one...breath...two...breath..... Maybe I'll count higher? (Check in on kid, see if they're starting to calm down) Should I count higher? Ok! Do you want to help? No? That's ok! I'll count by myself....eleven ...twelve ...Wow, I think I could use a big big hug...."

 

[monteviste]

@acuriousgirl What is the behavior you’re trying to correct? 3.5 is a transitional age for children.

A lot of studies on misbehavior are going to be on vulnerable populations (adopted/fostered, trauma, war populations, etc).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6862179/

In fact, previous studies have shown that one or both parents’ death, divorce or remarriage, and long-term separation from children can have a negative impact on a child’s emotional and behavioral functions

So would you be considered traumatizing your child by leaving the room? No. That’s not what trauma entails.

If emotional and behavioral problems in preschool- or school-aged children are not found and treated as early as possible, these individuals may have emotional and behavioral disorders in adulthood. These disorders mainly include the withdrawal of internalized symptoms, anxiety, depression, and hyperactivity disorder with externalized symptoms, if serious. In the case of behavioral disorders, it is likely that they will eventually develop into anti-social psychiatric disorders, which may have adverse effects on themselves and society as a whole [21,23].

Our study found that 27.6% of LBC aged 3 to 5 had abnormal SDQ scores. This is significantly higher than the value in the study of Xiaoyun Chen and his colleagues, where the detection rate of an abnormal SDQ score of 8900 preschool children aged 3–6 years in China was 13.6%

Children with actual, clinical behavior issues are exceeding rare, and only significant among vulnerable populations like LBC.

Her behavior may just be normal childhood misbehavior. In that case, finding a method that is verifiable and humane (such as something recommended by Yale or another legitimate institution) which works for you is totally fine. As long as they’re not recommending spanking or total isolation for hours or another trauma inducing event, it’s a “whatever works for the individual child” moment.

It never hurts to bring it up to a pediatrician, however. Especially depending on what the behavior actually is

 

[continualseeker]

@acuriousgirl You refer to the course as "the coercive cycle" solution. However, it is a more general solution to the fact that parental attention increases behavior.

You are saying that the Yale course is dog training and gentle parenting is not dog training.

The course is based on the idea that attention increases behavior. Or that attention strengthens a habit (which is probably more accurate). Attention is like the treat you use to train the dog.

Therefore any parent training that instructs you on reacting to behaviors with attention will amount to dog training. And, of course, gentle parenting includes many instructions about what behaviors in particular need attention.

My dog scratched our door and we let the dog in. The door was damaged over time. We had unintentionally trained the dog to damage the door. Unintentional dog training is still dog training. Gentle parents may not intend to strengthen bad habits with attention. But this is still dog training/operant conditioning. (You called it classic conditioning, but the proper term is operant conditioning as opposed to "classical conditioning").

I looked up the still-face experiment. The infant was about a year old. That is too young for using the Yale course.

Authoritative parenting has implicit instructions on deploying attention. If a parent is told to set firm boundaries then they will tend to attend more to boundary crossings and boundary-crossing habits will be strengthened. The Yale instructs you to ignore harmless boundary crossings and praise the positive opposite behavior. For behaviors that you cannot ignore, the Yale course instructs you to stop the harm while giving the behavior little or no attention.

Authoritative parenting instructs you to try to control behavior through reasoning and discussion. But if you react immediately with reasoning and discussion then the bad habit will be strengthened. The Yale course instructs you to do the discussion and reasoning away from the heat of the moment.

Note that kids (or parent-kid dyads) seem to vary in the extent to which attention increases their bad behavior. So using something like the Yale course versus something like gentle parenting varies in importance.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@continualseeker I totally understand that gentle parenting is also dog training! Now I get that anyways. When someone said when you give them attention it reinforces their behavior I totally get that now. My issue is that I feel like all the gentle parenting experts that swear by it do not even remotely give that warning or even indicate that could be an issue. I’m struggling why it “works” for so many people or is even recommended when it seems like of course individualized attention would reinforce my kid’s behavior!

 

[cutin]

@acuriousgirl Well firstly I would be wary of using the term "gentle parenting" as a descriptor because as far as I can tell, it is not a term with a widely agreed-upon definition (even though a lot of people are very attached to their specific definition and assume that everyone shares it - this causes a lot of problems!) It is essentially a floating signifier. And as someone else said below, a lot of the parenting advice that you find online which is labelled as "gentle parenting" is not evidence based, regardless of what they feel works for them or not. If it's a genuine expert and not just a random influencer, then they will usually have some kind of theory or reasoning behind what they are suggesting which DOES have a useful, universally-agreed upon definition, so you can use that as a starting point (e.g. "emotion coaching" or "logical consequences" or "co-regulation") and look at whether there is a sensible evidence base or psychological/biological basis for it or whether the person is misusing it. For example, attachment is definitely important for children, but "attachment parenting" is just borrowing the name, it's not necessary to follow tenets of attachment parenting to attain secure attachment.

Behaviourism isn't immune from bad advice, BTW - there are plenty of "experts" advocating for approaches which look like behaviourism who aren't following evidence based practice, and some of the history of behaviourism is downright barbaric, though referring to outdated aspects like electric shocks is a bit like saying psychology is all nonsense because Freud was wrong about a lot of things. And it's also not like behaviourism is the only evidence-based parenting practice, it just tends to lend itself well to being studied because it is about measurable outcomes.

But secondly, most good advice which incorporates aspects that people consider "gentle" shares a whole lot of aspects with positive (behaviourist) parenting - focusing on the behaviour that you want to see, choosing an effective antecedent, breaking expectations down into steps and working on one at a time.

And honestly, the vast majority of kids have a normally developing prefrontal cortex, and they're going to pick up reason, empathy and social cues given ANY reasonable parenting, just because they are human and humans do that. Even animals pick up on social cues. There is all kinds of research showing very very young children will perform prosocial behaviour almost instinctively whether it's rewarded or attended to or not, and that adults release oxytocin (a feel-good hormone) when they do nice things for other people (for example). If you think of everyone you know who you know anything about their childhood (e.g. family members, childhood friends, close adult friends/partners) you probably know that parenting style is absolutely not a direct correlation to adult character. Some of the best adults I know grew up with parenting that was, objectively, abusive. I won't say it didn't give them any issues, because it did, but in terms of becoming morally good people and encouraging correct behaviour in adulthood, well they got there in spite of it.

Therefore a lot of parents put their child's behaviour down to their own parenting and claim something "works" when it might not actually be their method at all. Look at how many people insist that spanking works, when we know that the evidence shows it does not.

There are some children who will struggle more with aspects like picking up social cues, emotional regulation, impulse control etc and they may need more targeted input, but if you're looking for a black and white answer to "should I attend to my child's emotions during emotional dysregulation or will this reinforce the behaviour?" it doesn't really exist. It's going to be different for different children. If you feel you're getting better results from ignoring the behaviour and your only concern is that you might be invalidating or teaching her that emotions aren't allowed, I really doubt that if you zoom out a bit and look at this in the context of your whole relationship. OTOH (anecdote incoming) my kids tend to really struggle with emotional regulation likely due to ADHD (the eldest is diagnosed, the middle one is on a waiting list) and ignoring specifically emotional-dysregulation-based behaviours doesn't decrease them even if we are very consistent with it, whereas coregulation (in the moment) and active teaching of emotional regulation strategies (outside the moment) has really helped, even though this would seem counterproductive in terms of behaviourism. Ignoring other behaviours, such as whining, is effective for us in decreasing those behaviours.