Parent Child Coercive Cycle Vs attachment/gentle parenting?

[acuriousgirl]

EDIT- I NEED TO CLARIFY . I do not have a “gentle parenting” philosophy. I do not need to gentle parent. I want to develop a well rounded child and not resent them and not pull out my hair at the end of the day. And I don’t want to perpetrate the relational trauma my cluster B parents did to me. That is all I care about. I do not care what we do or what we call it, I just want something that works and makes life more enjoyable.

Edit 2- I realized through these comments where I feel stuck is I feel like attachment parenting focuses on attuning to your child while they’re dysregulated and focusing on the connection between you two, whereas behaviorism emphasizes how that can reinforce the negative behavior. So now I feel like I shouldn’t or can’t attune to my kid , but then I worry if I don’t do that, my kid won’t feel safe or loved. So I’m not sure what to do.

——-

Can anyone help me understand how there can be such vastly different approaches to parenting?

We have tried more on the spectrum of attachment/gentle parenting throughout our 3.5 year olds life and it’s not working. Yes that includes us having boundaries and whatnot, but still focuses on maintaining the connection with the child, reflecting their emotions to them verbally, and physically staying present. but her behavior is either staying the same or continuing to worsen, not getting better.

I then was recommended the Yale ABCs parenting course online and told about the coercive cycle.

Maybe I’m not understanding either of these approaches but they seem pretty opposite. The coercive cycle solution (and the Yale course) basically seems like classic conditioning , almost like a dog, where you completely ignore any behavior you don’t want to reinforce and even remove yourself from that situation. And you immediately respond to positive behavior.

Due to the attachment parenting info I’ve heard, I feel like I’m abandoning her in the middle of the tantrum. Or telling her she isn’t “safe” to express her emotions. Isn’t it alarming to them when their parent suddenly “leaves”? Isn’t it panic inducing when their parent “isn’t responding” to their words? (Think still face experiment video.)

BUT it does seem to practically getting us better results.

If anyone could please help me understand the best approach here or how to not traumatize my kid I would appreciate it. Or if there’s nuances I’m missing .

 

[ebuzi]

@acuriousgirl Behavior Analyst here - the Yale course is essentially ABA.

There is certainly a way to marry these two approaches that, I believe, finds a happy medium. We have implored it in our home with good results.

I will caveat that 3.5 is a very tough age. Ask any parent of a 3yo and they will confirm.

I usually say - ignore the behavior, not the child. When my daughter has tough moments, occasionally I will put her in her room if she is truly off the rails, but typically I just get up and walk away. I TELL her I’m going to do this though. “You are not listening, I am going to get up”. When she does have tough moments, I do not acknowledge her behavior “stop crying” “stop hitting” mostly because this is futile. But also because we tell her what to do instead in those moments.

I say a lot of “I hear you” “I know this is hard” and set firm, but loving boundaries that I will follow through on calmly if need be. This might mean we are physically keeping her near the dinner table because she threw her noodles all over the table and we’ve asked her to clean them up and she is refusing (this was just last week). She was honestly hysterical, but we did not yell, shame, coerce, or give in. When she cleaned up the noodles, I gave her a huge hug and said “I know that was hard, thank you for cleaning up the mess. Let’s go get dressed and I’ll read to you”.

 

[continualseeker]

@ebuzi Here's what the instructor says about ABA vs the Yale Course aka the Kazdin Method:

"The vast majority of the techniques that comprise the Kazdin-Method are based on applied behavior analysis. Yet, three features distinguish our approach. First, we give great attention to antecedents. What can be done to increase the likelihood of getting the desired behavior in the first place? Modeling the behavior, directly assisting in any way necessary at first, and being positive in how the tasks is presented are among the main antecedents. We use “challenges” with young children and that is very useful in initiating the behavior and getting repetition of that same behavior.

Second, and related. We try to provide choices to children whenever possible. These are not choices that parents often use, which are better referred to as threats. Those threat-choices include doing something or facing some undesirable consequence. Choices we provide are two ways of doing some positive behavior. For example, the weather may be very cool so before going outside for a walk, we ask the child to wear the blue jacket or the brown sweater? The child has homework and we ask the child whether he wants to start with or without the parent for the first 10 min (for a child that is not doing homework). We rely on choice because that increases the likelihood of getting the desired behavior. Also, it is opposite from authoritative statements that parents are wont to make. Authoritative statements, sprinkled with a harsh tone, are likely to lead to reactance, a phenomenon that refers to a negative reaction and oppositional behavior.

Finally, we rely heavily on simulations. As I mentioned and illustrated before, there are times when the parent and child practice the desired behavior in a game-like situation. The key concept of the approach is repeated practice and that can begin in artificial role play situations. Simulation training is common in other facets of life (e.g., military training, commercial airline pilot training, training of surgeons). In these cases, training under artificial situations transfers over to everyday life and that is what we find as well with simulations. Once the behavior occurs in everyday life with the child, we can usually stop the simulation and rely on praise in those everyday situations."

https://www.techscience.com/IJMHP/v23n4/45335/html

Just posting to add nuance to "essentially ABA".

 

[ebuzi]

@continualseeker Thank you! This is all really what we do in ABA with our clients. So that is what I mean when I say “essentially ABA”.

We are constantly giving choices, analyzing the antecedents and making changes to the environment (antecedent interventions), and practicing (behavior skills training/ social skills training).

 

[continualseeker]

@ebuzi Kazdin probably did not completely understand the actual practice of ABA. He may have been reinventing the wheel with those 3 features.

 

[struggle101]

@continualseeker Every single one of those "exceptions" is still part of ABA. Except maybe the "challenges". I honestly am not understanding what they mean there.

 

[continualseeker]

@struggle101 A challenge involves saying something like "I bet you can't do X".

The Yale course is free, if you want to see full instructions on challenges then just go to the course and play the video entitled "Simulations":

https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting

 

[struggle101]

@continualseeker Thanks

 

[acuriousgirl]

@continualseeker Super helpful nuances thank you!

 

[acuriousgirl]

@ebuzi This is SUPER helpful, exactly what I was looking for. “Ignore the behavior, not the child” is helpful, as well as that you always tell them what you’re doing if you take space or leave. When you say “I am going to get up or walk away,” how does she respond and what do you do then? My daughter can get escalated from that sometimes but sometimes not. Do you tell her you will be over here if she wants to talk? Do you wait for her to initiate eventually? Do you initiate reconnection once she has calmed?

Let’s say she’s escalated and I’ve said I’m taking space. Let’s say she starts to throw some things angrily in the living room. Do I again just ignore and wait until she stops? Interven only if she really is in danger in those situations? Then make her clean up with both of us once she is calm?

 

[ebuzi]

@acuriousgirl I’m glad that’s helpful!

If I say I am getting up, then I get up. If she continues to escalate I will still take the space. If she begins throwing things (like the colored pencils she threw just yesterday) I say “whatever you throw on the ground, you will pick up” and I follow through on that once she’s calmed down. She now knows that and she typically will either 1. Stop or 2. Throw things she knows are easy to pick up lol but this is because we’ve been through 2-3 tantrums and I have followed through on her picking up whatever she destroyed/threw on the ground. I would ignore minor things and intervene neutrally with big things. This is kid specific - mine would never intentionally destroy large things, but some kids might go for the big stuff. With the big stuff, you block calmly and neutrally until they stop.

I say a lot of “let me know when you’re ready” and then walk away. I usually do this early in the escalation and it ends it because you’re removing the power struggle. So like not getting dressed and I’ve asked a few times “okay, let me know when you’re ready. I’m going to go finish getting dressed”. It seems counterintuitive, but it worked because what they are looking for is the attention from the power struggle. Once you remove that, they’re pretty quick to follow instructions.

Hope this helps, sorry it’s a bit jumbled - currently with my 2 kids!

 

[alivingearth]

@ebuzi

1. Throw things she knows are easy to pick up lol

This is honestly awesome. Good job, mama and kiddo! Kids have big feelings and it can be hard to get those feelings out of their bodies without some physicality. If their body needs to throw a soft toy, yell and cry, or stomp their feet, that's perfectly acceptable in my home. As long as it isn't directed at anyone or anything that can get hurt.

And cleaning up isn't a punishment, it's just a consequence. For my young kids I'll help them clean up to model the behavior and let them know I'm still on their side, even after a big feeling.

 

[ebuzi]

@alivingearth Thank you! It’s actually incredibly rare that she throws things when upset, but she did throw those pencils LOL We just added a new sibling and there’s been some feelings with the unavailability of me (mom). It’s been tough to navigate, but I’ve certainly leaned in to allowing her to be a “baby” again with some things which has seemed to help.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@ebuzi I also wanted to add- I realized through these comments where I feel stuck is I feel like attachment parenting focuses on attuning to your child while they’re dysregulated and focusing on the connection between you two, whereas behaviorism emphasizes how that can reinforce the negative behavior. So now I feel like I shouldn’t or can’t attune to my kid, I need to ignore them; , but then I worry if I don’t try to connect with them, my kid won’t feel safe or loved. So I’m not sure what to do I feel stuck.

 

[ebuzi]

@acuriousgirl That’s really insightful! It might take some trial and error to see what feels right for you.

We are definitely in the middle of the road with our parenting. So I EBF, co-slept, and always responded to her cries as an infant and young toddler. But as she got older, I implemented more of what I know as a behavior analyst (with a definite gentle and attachment parenting flair). We validate, but also follow through on stated consequences and are firm when needed. We don’t let her emotions “rule the roost”. Like you can be mad/upset/sad, but you cannot scream, hit, destroy things and I will ignore those behaviors or implement consequences as necessary.

For us - 3.5 feels very pivotal. We are experiencing lots of behaviors and emotions and it’s feeling like the expectations and boundaries we set now are very important for our future. It’s hard to see her upset and so dystegulated at times, but we feel good about our middle of the road approach to her behavior. Like we aren’t coddling her but we also aren’t ruling with an iron fist and getting compliance through fear.

 

[smartgeek]

@ebuzi I think that this is absolutely right and that validating, but following through with consequences is key. So, the connecting/validating doesn’t reinforce the negative behavior because the purpose of connecting is to correct the behavior. And the correction doesn’t stop at validating/connecting, there are still consequences.

I’m only just in the midst of figuring this out with my 15 mo. old, and right now we’re working on not hitting or pinching when being carried. The first time he does it, I validate however he’s feeling but remind him that hitting/pinching hurts and is not allowed. I tell him that that hurts and I’m going to set him down if he can’t be gentle. Then, I ask him to show me “gentle touching” instead. In the beginning, he would usually hit/pinch me again, and then I would immediately set him down and move away from him. When he cried upon being set down, I would remind him that he hurt me, and that was why he was set down. He would then usually come up to me trying to show me “gentle touch” (stroking my face gently ) and I would pick him back up. Now, I can just give him a Look when he hits me, and he stops and switches to gentle touching right away. And at the same time, we’re working on what else he can do instead of hitting/pinching when he starts to feel the urge. So far, it seems like he’s hitting/pinching when he gets overstimulated, not because he’s angry, so we’ll have to see it this method holds for more difficult behaviors, but it’s drastically cut down on the hitting/pinching for now.

 

[ebuzi]

@smartgeek That’s such a perfect way to respond! Every kiddo is so different and will need different approaches. I’m currently learning this as a second time mom!

My first, a VERY spicy baby and toddler, needed the true “behaviorism” approach. I tried what you described, but ANY attention after the hitting increased the behavior. Ultimately, I had to just completely ignore and walk away/put down. This worked quickly and we worked on gentle hands outside of the situation.

 

[anayat11011]

@acuriousgirl IMO kids need a little of both. I'm a big fan of the whole Brain child, avoiding punishment and rewards, etc. I don't think behaviorist ideas work if that's what you're exclusively doing. I also know behaviorism works. I've been through a type of behavriost therapy that changed my life (exposure therapy) and resolved my problems.

So generally, we support tears. We provide comfort. We direct kids in different ways. But when behavior isn't redirectable or a change isn't happening, we will do some rewards. We did a prize to stop nail biting and candy for a stubborn potty trainer.

In my opinion in parenting it's good to have ideals but we also need a lot of practicality

 

[dustinx]

@acuriousgirl I have not read all the books or know all the philosophies, but I have tried to focus on the authoritative vs authoritarian approach. I have had some of the same questions you raise - primarily because my toddler’s tantruming almost always involves hitting me, rather than hitting things. This is a boundary I will not waver on, which means I almost always have to walk away, or - when they inevitably follow me continuing to hit and kick - remove them to their room until they are done hitting.

This has given me an impossible challenge, because I can either be with my kid to help them through the dysregulation and “lend my calm” and all that, or I can hold the no hitting boundary, but not both. When my kid was younger, I did gently restrain him and hold his arms down until he physically calmed, but now that he’s bigger and stronger, my physical endurance or my patience (usually both) runs out before he’s done and I put him in his child-locked room.

The difference I try to focus on is consequences vs. punishment. I tell him it’s ok to be angry, but it’s not ok to hit, and I’m putting him in his room to keep us both safe. Removing him from a situation where he is not being safe toward another person is a natural consequence. I’m not sending him to his room as punishment for being bad, and I don’t physically isolate him if he is not hitting/kicking. I’m not punishing him for having a tantrum, I’m holding a boundary.

Do I know if this is the right approach? Hell no. Am I worried that I’m scarring him for life every time I put him in his room and do I fear I’m failing him by being unable to teach him to regulate his emotions? Absolutely. But my hope is that he’ll learn to stop hitting not because he fears my punishment, but because he makes the connection that people aren’t willing to be around other people who hit, and being alone is the consequence.

 

[acuriousgirl]

@dustinx When do you get him from his room?