Help with this line from the separation agreement?

[becausehefirstlovedus]

Okay, not expecting legal-level advice here; just different perspectives on this clause. I am having a hard time interpreting "Reasonable consent will not be withheld" in this context

From our separation agreement.

H. Travel: When either party is traveling for more than one overnight with X and Y, the party traveling with X and Y shall provide the other party with the location of travel and contact numbers as far in advance as practicable. X and Y shall not be taken out of school unless both parties agree in writing. Reasonable consent will not be withheld.

Does that mean she can't always say no just for the sake of saying no? I have tried for 3 years to get permission and am constantly denied permission. It's to the point now that she will say (paraphrasing her arguments), "you are asking for permission so much, I won't give permission at this point because you 'clearly' don't value school and are trying to teach the kids that travel is more important than their responsibilities at school". Never mind that I have never been able to take them out of school for 3 years. How do you interpret "reasonable consent will not be withheld"?

 

[sashaw3]

@becausehefirstlovedus Reasonable consent for missing school is a family emergency, once in a lifetime trip, at a time when missing a class isn't critical for their understanding of the unit being taught.

Not Mom/Dad got a random Tuesday off and wants to let us play hookey for the day. Or just poor trip planning on each part.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@sashaw3 Totally agree with that definition of reasonable consent, thank you for that. So long as one partner makes a reasonable argument for one of those types of experiences, the other party should provide consent? Is that how you interpret that also?

 

[naga888]

@becausehefirstlovedus The phrasing of your OP doesn’t make it sound like you agree. You said you are “constantly” denied. Do you “constantly” (or even frequently) have family emergencies necessitating your children miss school?

There shouldn’t even be “occasional” instances of a family emergency or once-in-a-lifetime events…

Editing to add - after reading other comments I think I interpreted that last line differently than most (but seemingly the same the the comment we are replying to)

I interpret that more like “consent for a reasonable reason won’t be withheld”

My parenting plan is worded slightly differently but essentially it means that if there’s a valid reason that is “reasonable” for the kid to travel/miss school/leave country then the other parent won’t withhold consent.

I DONT interpret it to mean the person withholding consent has to be able to articulate a reasonable argument each time (not saying they shouldn’t have to. Just saying I think I’m attributing the word “reasonable” to the situation not to the non-consent reasoning)

So from that perspective, if you’re asking ex to have the kids miss school for camping trips or Disney vacations or concerts or something like that…. I can see her argument that a camping trip or vacation or family visit isn’t a “reasonable” reason to miss school. Not that she has to articulate why this specific day of school is important. If that makes sense….

Again, not saying I’m right, just how I interpreted it and I think probably the reason you’re struggling.

I agree it might be worth consulting a lawyer just to understand what the COURT views as the interpretation of that sentence and go from there.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@naga888 Oh, I appreciate your viewpoints as well. While I wouldn't use the phrasing "once in a lifetime" trips, I would personally argue for memorable/meaningful/enriching trips. Still, I also very much agree with the need for family emergencies. You are correct though, I don't constantly have family emergencies.

My vision for the kids is to introduce them to as many cultures and experiences as possible during their early and formative years; some of those experiences, unfortunately, can only be participated in during the school year; it was a vision that my ex-partner and I used to share before our separation/divorce, but has since been a significant point of contention.

School is 1000% important, I never disagree with that. But the opportunities to miss school for those experiences become much more difficult as they reach middle and high school.

I do agree though with the later points too; the responsibility for making the argument about why consent should be given is on the parent seeking to take them out of school. I would expect though, that if the other parent is withholding consent 100% of the time, they should start explaining why consent can never be achieved. "No is no" works for me until there are 4 years of 100% denied consent , then "no is no" means you just planned to never provide consent.

I agree with the later points too; the responsibility for making the argument about why consent should be given is on the parent seeking to take them out of school. I would expect though, that if the other parent is withholding consent 100% of the time, they should start explaining why consent can never be achieved. "No is no" works for me until there are 4 years of 100% denied consent , then "no is no" means you just planned to never provide consent.

 

[naga888]

@becausehefirstlovedus Totally agree with all you said here - thanks for elaborating.

I do happen to agree with you that memorable experiences like you describe are reasonable. School isn’t the only place we learn and grow - sorry that you’re in this situation.

I would definitely seek advice from a lawyer (even a free consultation maybe?) on how to phrase an “fyi” vs an “asking permission” type message, if they think that’s possible.

Good luck!

 

[sashaw3]

@becausehefirstlovedus Unless there's an underlying issue where parents A thinks parent B isn't going to take care of kid

 

[jesusfreak2014]

@becausehefirstlovedus To me personally, I think that as long as all the requirements of the agreement are met then it shouldn't be a problem. If she agreed to the terms in the agreement then she's just saying no for the sake of saying no. You should be able to travel with your kids.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@jesusfreak2014 Someone else I knew was interpreting it that she doesn't have to listen to reasonable consent... "no" is no. Regardless, 3 years later, it feels like a pretty poorly written statement, lol.

 

[jesusfreak2014]

@becausehefirstlovedus Hmm yeah it is a bit difficult to decipher. But I think with it saying reasonable consent will not be withheld its trying to say either of you won't withhold consent just for the sense of wanting to be an asshole as long as the criteria is met. Maybe you could look into talking to a lawyer about it especially since she seems to be withholding consent. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that! It's rough dealing with someone like that, why deny your kids of a fun experience just because you wanna be the boss?

I'm sorry if I'm just assuming your situation I would just be irritated if I were you.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@jesusfreak2014 I appreciate you!

 

[youngwolf]

@becausehefirstlovedus He’s covering his ass. Especially if he has NOT given reasonable consent in the past. I’m divorced from a covert narc and he put language into our parenting agreement like this. It makes him sound reasonable when they aren’t.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@youngwolf Totally agree with you, but in my scenario, it is the opposite, "she's covering her ass". Sorry to hear about your ex being a covert narc... it's a very subtle type but dangerous type of narcissism.

 

[youngwolf]

@becausehefirstlovedus Gotcha… sorry! I miss second I read that sentence… it sounds t have not read the list carefully enough!
Wish you the best. It’s incredibly hard to parent with people who don’t put their kids first and IMO, this is red flag language from someone trying to convince someone else they are reasonable. There really isn’t a good reason for language like this… it’s vague and arbitrarily. It is something that does not need to be said either… what parent doesn’t consider what is reasonable? Maybe I’m overthinking this because of my experience, but this is something my ex would do… implies he is reasonable and I’m not.

 

[katrina2017]

@becausehefirstlovedus The first one means: don't make yourself a flight risk.

The Second: Joint Custody means that both parents must mutually agree to educational and school decisions.

That's the fun part (sarcasm) about Joint Custody, you're allowed to say "no" and unless the other parent has the money to fight that decision, it stays that way. Because when Joint is granted, the court expects the both of you to be adults and work together, they forget that we're human beings.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@katrina2017 Well, the joke is on the court system! If we could work jointly successfully, we probably wouldn't be divorced! LOL. It's amazing how you are supposed to review and make these legally binding agreements through such an emotionally draining period in your life. The relevance and intentions of statements do not become clear until the X years part. Working with a therapist first to try and resolve this outside of mediation... but mediation is the next step.

 

[maxedwell]

@becausehefirstlovedus How are the grades, to me that is a factor. I have custody and my kid has an A in every class. I have had him miss one or two days a year for random days I have off to do things. Its not unreasonable in my opinion due to the fact he maintains an A in every class... Take them out for a day if you want to do something and the grades are good enough, call the bluff.

Edit: I am surprised something like this was able to slide in a parenting plan... in writing for something like this is overboard. We had to have our plan reviewed and over anal verbiage like this was a no go per the court.

 

[becausehefirstlovedus]

@maxedwell I mean, the kicker is, they are still in elementary school, so not even receiving real grading marks yet... though at all the parent-teacher conferences, they are at or above grade level.

I went back through my communication, my lawyer had highlighted it for review and discussion, but we never got there... it was unfortunately right as COVID was starting, so I definitely reached a point of just "let's just get this done". Its a rough time period to be reviewing legal docs.

 

[maxedwell]

@becausehefirstlovedus You could just take them out for a trip or whatever you're trying to do and see how it plays out. I feel like that's such a bs line in the plan. Hang in there and try to get primary if you can. I have primary and I am a dad, it happens.

 

[izzywray]

@becausehefirstlovedus The second line is all over my custody agreement. It boiled down to one parent having to make a reasonable argument why they are not giving consent. Just saying 'cause I said so' is not reasonable. Showing the kid is doing poorly in school or will miss an important test leading to the child struggling further is more 'reasonable'.

eta: States vary but in my state this has been tested and held in court