At wits end. My daughter is a demon. Please help.(x-post r/parenting)

painhour

New member
I am looking for help/advice and sorry for the wall of unformatted text to follow. This is my wifes expression of what is going on in our family.

My apologies for this being long. I’m a parent of a 2 going on 3 year old, and heaven help me this is a good cross between a vent and a plea for help/guidance/solidarity because I’m not alone/suggestions. I have a fantastic, polite, sociable child. Has been for the better part of the past 2 to 2.5 years. We did a lot of attachment parenting and such. Seemed to work. And, somewhere around July of this year, it all went to shit. We chalked it up to the fact that we’d just taken her on a 14 hour road trip to visit family for 2 weeks, and then 14 hours back. And then we got a dog, and chalked it up to adjusting to essentially having a sibling in the house. And then she started homeschool preschool and things got sort of better…I imagine because she was challenged during the day. And then they went to shit again. We have been very schedule, routine, consistency driven her entire life. She knows the expectations of the house and usually does well to listen to them. But, as of late, it feels like nothing but defiance. And part of me says, she 2… does she really know how to be defiant at this age? But, I don’t know how else to explain it. Simple things. Stupid things. Like saying she’s hungry for lunch and lunch time, and giving her the choice between 2 foods and she picks option A, and as we’re paring it she opts for option B. When we say no, and tell her she can have option B tomorrow but today it’s A because that’s what she picked, she melts down. If she doesn’t melt down and accepts option A, she takes 1 bite and then gets up and decides she’s done. …I wish this was a rare occurrence. We finally stopped fighting her on food, if she got down and walked away then so be it, but there were no second chances to eat and she went without anything else until the next meal. …no change in her refusal to eat. She knows she’s not allowed to throw sand at the dog, or to chase the dog around the house, or to clap in the dogs face…and yet…she does it. We take the dog out to go potty and play fetch with the dog, and she decides she wants to play. And finds a stick. And throws it at the dogs face. I admit that I don’t think it’s intentional and her aim just sucks. But…we’ve told her that she doesn’t get to throw sticks for the dog, only balls and only when someone lets her so we can make sure she’s pointed in the right direction…and yet…she fucking does it. We’ve tried taking away tv time, ipod time, sending her to her room, making her sit in time out on a stool in the hall with nothing around her. She probably needs more things that are her centric to do, time that is just hers to run and play… but that’s sometimes easier said than done. In the summer it’s not bad because there are school play grounds. But, once school has started the playgrounds she enjoys and challenge her are off limits. The city ones leave much to be desired. She responds well to “time in’s,” which is realizing the negative behavior is just a request for attention and time devoted to her. And, will try to keep an eye out for a stretch of about 20 minutes where our daughter hasn’t been being mischievous and awful in order to give her a time in (so as to not directly reward negative behavior), but those 20 minute stretches are becoming hard to come by. I don’t want to just take her to the playground, or into the city to the museum or zoo or some awesome playground a half hour away, all to reward the crap behavior. We made the mistake/genius doing of spanking her with a wooden spoon when she would shove the chair into the dog. That has since stopped…and she seems to fear being spanked with a wooden spoon. But, neither of us want to resort to continuous hitting/spanking/whatever to get her to listen. We were both spanked in our day, and I’m not against it. But, I think that it has its time and place, and for every little thing isn’t it. Likewise, with the absolute frustration and anger we sometimes feel with her when she’s acting this way, I would hate in a moment of those emotions to bring it past a spanking to a beating because heaven knows that is not how either of us were parented or want to parent. I that part of this is just the 2’s and 3’s that everyone warned us about. She’s still polite to strangers, and pretty great when we’re out of the house. But at home she is in fully “test my limits,” mode. We obviously don’t attempt to cave, but when she doesn’t get the message it feels like we’re caving. Supposedly it gets better around 4 to 5, but do I really want to wait it out for the next year or 2 all to find out we’ve been doing it wrong and now instead of having a toddler testing the limits I have a spoiled brat of a child? It feels like we’re losing control in our house. Not that we give in, but that at every. Single. Turn. She seems to be having a meltdown about something, anything, nothing. If we are home, she will try to change her mind and go against what we say just to see what happens. To get a reaction. To test her limits. Because she hasn’t been diagnosed with something yet. I don’t know. I have zero idea why. And whenever we ask her why, she can’t seem to answer. I gather why is a big concept for such a little person, and to tell us that she’s testing her limits or to get our attention is something I certainly don’t expect her to know. I am stay at home mom, so it’s not like she doesn’t have a parent around. Friends she’s lacking in. Maybe she’s starting to realize that. Our little oasis (I use that term so super loosely) in western Pennsylvania is pretty sheltered. We came from western Massachusetts where there was a different free community play group going on each day during the winter. There were ways she could go play with peers in a safe environment. That’s not offered here. Not only are there just no indoor play places where we’re at, but there are no community centers, no play groups, no anything targeted towards kids unless it’s a structured music class, structured dance class, structured something. Even our local Y is lacking. We tried putting her in preschool there while I worked there. I quit because I didn’t feel safe with our daughter in that program (that I was working in and saw). I know she’s to the age she NEEDS peer interaction. But, it seems so silly to put her into daycare when I am a stay at home mom. Maybe we need a break from one another during the week. Maybe she needs peers. Maybe it’s the age. Maybe we’ve just done something royally wrong. I don’t know. I have zero idea. But, I do know I need something to change. We both need something to change. Is this just a normal part of the terrible 2’s and the threenager stage? It’s our first kid and we only moved here a year ago so we don’t have much for friends with kids we can ask. Is there a better way to handle it? We spend so much time fighting with her, and yelling, and sending her to her room… this isn’t how a family should be. We were both raised in slightly dysfunctional families, we want something better for our own. She seems to do relatively okay when she is with just 1 parent, but when we’re both around her… the dynamics change so much. If she’s already had a bad day with me, when my husband gets home and she has 2 of us, the day goes from bad to explosive. I don’t know how to regain some semblance of enjoyable family time…for any of us. I, who have spent YEARS working with kids, and YEARS dreaming of being a mom will end my days ready to throw in the towel and be done. More than once I’ve cried herself to sleep and told my husband that I just can’t do this anymore. It’s probably venting, but I shouldn’t have to end my day ready to give up. It’s not like I’m not experienced with kids and didn’t have a basic idea of what it means to have kids. Granted if you don’t have your own, it’s a different story to be able to leave them at the end of the night instead of having them with you 24/7… but it wasn’t like I’d never seen “other side,” to having kids instead of just a seemingly happy family.

Thank you

tl;dr Positive parenting doesnt seem to work any more. Our 2.5 yr old daughter is a princess while out of the house but a demon at home. She won't listen, melts down at everything, and is turning into a brat. We don't know what to do any more. Please help.
 
@painhour You have a completely normal kid.

2-3 is the testing limits time. Completely and relentlessly doing quality control on the limits you set. This is a toddler.

You can't take it personally. It will pass.

In your specific instance: The move has adversely affected her. She no longer trusts her environment perhaps? Change can be very tough on little kids and they don't have any other way to express this except by acting out. I could be wrong and she is basically happy but just unsure of something in her world.

You definitely need a break. Even though her behavior is normal kid stuff ( when bored, engage the parent ) she is trying to work things out in her head with a limited vocabulary and plenty of toddler ego-centric behavior. This is exhausting to deal with. Again, it will pass but get away when you can.

You might want to think about going to the library and asking about homeschool groups. Some of them are religious, some are more "organic." They would welcome you and perhaps provide some unstructured play for her.

Also try giving her a way to record her voice, to draw, to mold clay, to express herself. See if she responds to music or dancing. Movement like dance and tumbling for toddlers can release pent up energy and help them sleep at night.

This stage will pass. Just be firm and find yourself some babysitters you trust so you can get away and recharge, Mama.
 
@itscw Yup. Take a break. Your kid sounds like a very typical 2-3 year old. It sucks. Hugs. I agree with more time with other kids, creative expression, etc. Lots of vestibular might help too - swinging, rolling, tumbling.

From your side of things, one thing that helps me is to try to think from her point of view, as hard as it is. Also, I can't say enough about positive suggestions, instead of saying "no" all the time. It really helps me from a positive thinking point of view, aside from the fact that it can help her too.
 
@painhour First, congrats on being a dad who cares enough to want to find a better way. Some guys just leave it up to the mom to figure it out so give yourself some credit there.

As a dad of a four year old, I feel your pain. Our kid was actually really very good at age 2. I sometimes wondered how we were so lucky to have avoided the "terrible twos". But, then she turned three, and every behavior issue we thought we had avoided came full force and has been a real challenge.

Over the past couple of years I've gone through a number of philosophies about the right way to parent. I've tried different strategies, felt guilty about some, recognized some as ineffective (at least with my child), and changed my mind so many times I have lost count.

You can do searches on parenting techniques and find a number of approaches that might be worth a try.

There are a few things that seem to stick out as truths no matter which parenting techniques or strategies you go with:
  1. Both parents need to be on the same page. If mommy tells the kid no on something, you need to back her up. (And she needs to do the same for you.) If you disagree on a rule talk to her about it later when the kid is not around. But from your kids point of view the two of you need to be a unified front.
  2. Try not to yell or hit your child. I am NOT trying to argue morality here, just trying to be practical. I've lost my cool with my kid plenty of times. But here is the thing: it doesn't get you anywhere with the kid. They only see the anger, they completely tune out whatever it is you are saying. My kid used to laugh when I would shout at her. It was a manical laugh, like " haha, I made you lose your cool, I have more power than you". Of course she didn't actually say any of that but it felt that way to me, and it is in fact true: when she can push my buttons, she wins the power struggle.
  3. Pick your battles. You want to avoid getting into power struggles with your child. Why? Because the kid will at least occasionally win one, and when then happens it is like a gambler playing a slot machine: that one occasional win is what keeps them coming back again and again. Try to avoid the power struggles, but when one does happen, you must win it. Or find a way to de-escalate it without a resolution (distraction can be a great tool here).
  4. Say yes more than you say no. When you do say no, find a way to soften the blow: "no, you can't have a sandwich now since we already made your chicken, but I can see you like chicken so you can have it tomorrow."
  5. Don't dwell on negative behavior. If your child breaks a rule, give a consequence or just say "no" -- and move on. "Don't hit the dog kiddo. Throw the ball to mommy instead."
  6. Model good behavior. Let your kid see you acting the way you want him to act. Want him to say please and thank you? Always do so yourself. And acknowledge mistakes. Don't try to give him an excuse "oh daddy doesn't have to do that because..." Even if it is true. At his age it will just confuse him. Instead say "you're right, I goofed, thanks for pointing it out" that will help him be more accepting when you correct his behavior too.
Oh and one more: make sure you and your wife get sanity breaks. The number one thing I see in your post is not that you have a bad kid, but that you are stressed. It's understandable, but you need to take care of yourself. You will be a better parent when you do. Also try to set up a system with your wife where you can each have a signal that says "I'm losing my cool here, I need you to take over for a bit before I make a mistake". Don't beat yourself up over it, there is no doubt these little kids can be very challenging.
 
@ichthymom This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.
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@painhour I have a 3.5 year old and he's been doing this for a year at least. I never really did the whole attachment parenting thing. I know plenty of people who have done it and their kids make mine look like an angel. That's not to say they're always like that. I just think every kid does this. My son has twin siblings. He's given one a black eye with a toy. Constantly knocks them over. I'm a SAHM as well. And let me tell you, they need friends! And play dates. I'd put him in preschool if I could afford it! He does SO much better at the park or at a museum. So maybe go early in the day before all the drama starts so she doesn't link it to "if I'm bad I get to play!" It's exhausting. I want to pull my hair out. Parenting this age is HARD. And for me, 3 is worse than 2. We all feel this way at some point. Try not to get yourself down! It happens to us all! Your kid is normal.
 
@painhour ya sounds pretty typical. You're doing it all right. Humans are messy little things. :)

But ya I'd go +1000 on the socialization. Really sucks that you don't have anything on offer. Where are you located?

We live in Prague and there are tons of things for kids to do. We ended up putting our 2, almost 3 year old in preschool for 2 full days a week and the effect is awesome. It's really really good for them.

even if you are a stay at home mom, I'd say do the daycare if it's not a money strain. It's for him, not you. :)
 
@painhour I agree with most folks here, typical 2 yo behavior. It can be very overwhelming but know you're not alone. When my son was that age, I would just pick him up and put him in his room when he had a tantrum. I didn't set a time limit, I just told him he wasn't allowed to come back to hang out until he pulled himself together. It worked pretty well for us. What fun is throwing a fit if there is no one to watch?

It can be hard when you don't have friends in your area with kids. Maybe go on your local mom to mom Facebook page and see about starting a play group? Even if the playgrounds aren't great, a ball and some grass or some bubbles can entertain a 2 yo for quite awhile.

Good luck!
 
@painhour Sounds like you have your hands full! I agree that she probably needs to get some more peer interaction going on. We're struggling with that (neighborhood we live in his hispanic and the parents will feign not knowing English so they can just stare at us without having to deal with us). It's easy to tell our daughter is lonely and bored, so I do what I can to get her out of the house, but it's not near as much as she needs. Anyway, I think you're on to something about that. Get her out and wear her out, and when you get home she'll be happier.

I'm going to address the spanking.... and i'm sure I'll get blasted for it. So be it. I've spanked my daughter and it's been effective. Mind you, it's never on the "first offense", or even the tenth, but it's one of those things I've used when reminders, warnings, time-outs, take-aways, etc don't work. I think, if you're okay with the idea of giving a spank or two, think about where you draw the line. When is it used? Those kinds of things. We don't spank very often, thankfully, as a lot of the other methods typically work over time, but the spank has really helped when nothing else seems to have. I don't care if any commenters disagree with me. I don't want to hear your opinions, I'm speaking directly to the OP, so if you disagree, just downvote me and move along.
 
@painhour When I was getting very frustrated with my toddler at that age, I'd basically remind myself out loud of the situation. "You're 2 and you can't communicate well and are frustrated and so am I because I don't understand the problem. You're having a very toddler-y day."

"I having a toddler-y day." became her apologetic response by the time she was 3.
 
@painhour It sounds like your area is very lacking in resources. That makes it hard. Is there a library nearby? They might have a storytime/playtime to go to? Maybe since you are a SAHM, you can do preschool or daycare only twice or three times per week? That way, it will be lower cost, but she could still get the interaction.

I agree that sounds like normal toddler stuff, but I'm not sure if knowing that makes it easier. Wish I had some more advice, but mine is still pre-toddler. I have heard good things about a book called Love and Logic, although I haven't read it myself, and have also heard good things about doing a reward system (like stickers or tokens to work towards a bigger prize). There are a lot of different toddler reward systems explained on blogs and such, and you could tailor it to best fit her interests.

Hang in there!
 
@painhour Do we have the same kid? My daughter will be 3 in a few months and we are (I think, I hope) coming out of it a bit. A few things that helped us:

Pick your battles. I think it is really, really good that you have decided to ease off the food stuff, because eating is one of those areas where you can't really win. Save the big guns for the stuff that really matters.

I have had a lot of success by disengaging/ignoring my daughter when she is doing attention seeking behaviors or being a total demon. I will very calmly tell her, "Just let me know when you are ready to have your diaper changed" and then leave the room, turn my back, whatever. I know that makes me sound like a pushover, but a) it works and b) if the bad behavior continues for too long, I will let her know that there will be consequences if she doesn't get her shit together. Once I actually followed through with consequences a couple times, she got the message. But it has to be something immediate; something they want or have at that moment.

Talk about good and bad behaviors when no one is angry. I made up this imaginary character whose name rhymes with our dayghter's name, and when we're in the car, I tell stories about this other kid 'a bad behavior and the consequences of it. She LOVES hearing these stories. Then when she starts acting up, I will call her by the "other" name as a way of pointing out that she is veering into bad behavior.

For the little things that drive you nuts, but that your kid probably didn't do on purpose (like her throwing a stick at the dog's face), try not to freak out on her, because that may just entice her to do it again. (Toddlers are crazy!) instead, do what you can to ensure that she doesn't have that opportunity again. When my daughter was being too rough with our pets, we instituted a "no touch animals" rule for about a week and just tried to keep her away from the dogs during that time. She was a lot more careful the next time we let her pet one of them.

Most of all, as others have said, try not to take it personally. Your daughter annoy explain, or probably even understand, why she is behaving this way.
 
@painhour oops sorry. I didn't catch the first time through that this was written by dad, but from the mom's perspective. Parenting is hard - I'm glad you two are working together.
 
@painhour Our big man just turned three and he's in the middle of going through the same stage in life. I could have written this post. Like you said, positive parenting doesnt work anymore. I threaten to smack his bum when he acts up. We have a 1 year old too, so I am constantly pulled in two directions. I feel like I'm cracking up. It's exhausting. I just try to get through the day until they go to bed.
 
@painhour Have you tried contacting the local public health unit? Ours runs classes on techniques to deal with toddlers, as well as other parenting challenges, and they also have a great resource library. Your family medical practice may also know of some good stuff.

It's not silly to have her in daycare despite the fact that you're at home. My SO is on parental leave with the baby right now, and our toddler goes to daycare despite the fact that there's a parent at home for the peer socialization and activities geared to that age group. We think it's a huge benefit.

With regards to the indecision thing - I hear you! Here's a sample from our house:

Me:" do you want an apple, or a banana?"

Kid:"banana!"

Me:"ok, here's your banana"

Kid:"NO BANANA! Apple!"

Me: facepalm

What's working for us is physically putting both options in front of the kid and waiting. It just seems to take small kids more time to make a decision, and we've noticed that meltdowns are much more likely when they're feeling rushed. Obviously, you're not going to put two completely separate meals down, but there may be the possibility of choice within the meal. And, if they don't end up eating much, it's no biggie. We don't always feel like eating much, so why should they? Our kid goes on jags of eating so little that I assume they've figured out photosynthesis, then turns around and out-eats us. We also go by the "if you don't eat at this meal, you have to wait until the next one " rule.

I think the "defiance" is normal at this age. I don't think that it's deliberate defiance, just an exploration of their newly developed sense of self ("what happens if I decide to do this instead of what Mom said?"). It is exhausting no matter what, and we do find ourselves repeating things a LOT, but the point is starting to get through. We've been working on showing what the consequences of an action are, with the theory that it will (eventually) help them self- regulate. We make the expectation clear, and enforce the consequence (e.g. If you want to walk at the grocery store, you have to hold on to the cart. If you try to run around, you're going to have to sit in the cart). Punishment will just encourage them not to get caught. Most importantly, pick your battles!

One book that I've found very helpful is How To Talk So Your Kids Will listen And Listen So Your Kids Will Talk. Some of the things in there are more for older kids, but I've started using some of it on my 2 1/2 year old, and they're helping.

Sorry for the long post. Good luck!
 
@painhour Some kids are very challenging. Mine are teenagers now and I can say that they keep changing as they grow, so this will pass. You need to have a break sometimes. We didn't have family to leave ours with so it was pretty nightmarish for a while, but Dad needs to watch her sometimes so Mom can get a sanity break for an evening, or day, or weekend. Good luck, and hang in there! Things will get better.
 
@painhour You sound like a wonderful mom and she sounds like a very normal child who is acting very normally for a self-confident little girl. Sometimes they do just drive you nuts with behavior that isn't fun to deal with, but is normal. It's not fun to have to constantly discipline your child and it sounds like you are hanging in there - trying to be positive and keep your life pleasant even as she goes through a very difficult stage. It's a stage. This too shall pass.

Being a brat at home and a lovely person away is a strong sign that you are doing a good job with her.

I found when my children were young that in order to be able to deal with the stress of child-rearing, I needed occasional breaks from young children. You'll be able to put things into perspective better. You'll be able to deal better and be less stressed by her more difficult moments if you get a break regularly. And if the babysitting or class you enroll her in isn't perfect for her - it will still help her learn that life isn't perfect and doesn't always revolve around her. So let your guilt go and arrange to give yourself some space from her. She needs to have that space too, and will behave better for you if she starts to feel some independence... which the time away will also provide.
 
@present
You sound like a wonderful mom

She did hit her toddler with a wooden spoon. Obviously behaviour isn't destiny, and this woman has the potential to be a wonderful mom, same as everyone. But she's definitely not there yet.
 
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