@onlybythegraceofgod Really great advice. Thank you!
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I’m in tears…
- Thread starter bobezeh
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- let's chat sleep training
nereprezentativ
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@onlybythegraceofgod Great summary. I never understood dragging out crying over weeks rather than just getting through it quickly with extinction, to me that’s harder on both parents and baby. To me it’s like tummy time, they won’t enjoy it but you as the adult know that the best thing for their development is good sleep.
@bobezeh Hey you are allowed to want more sleep, it doesn't make you less grateful for your baby!
When you say your cutoff time, do you mean you're trying something like fuss it out or pick up put down or just rocked to sleep then snuck into bed? At 5 months, she's got that object permanence that causes the 4 month sleep regression. So if she falls asleep in your arms, but wakes up in a crib, she's going to be distressed because it isn't where she remembers falling asleep. Kind of like if you went to sleep in your bed, but woke up in your backyard, you'd probably sit up and say "what the hell?"
But also if bedtime is lasting 30 minutes, I wonder if she's getting overtired during that time and then easily startled because of it
When you say your cutoff time, do you mean you're trying something like fuss it out or pick up put down or just rocked to sleep then snuck into bed? At 5 months, she's got that object permanence that causes the 4 month sleep regression. So if she falls asleep in your arms, but wakes up in a crib, she's going to be distressed because it isn't where she remembers falling asleep. Kind of like if you went to sleep in your bed, but woke up in your backyard, you'd probably sit up and say "what the hell?"
But also if bedtime is lasting 30 minutes, I wonder if she's getting overtired during that time and then easily startled because of it
@bobezeh I was ‘blessed’ with two terrible sleepers from the start, so solidarity. Haha.
After going through 4-5 months with my second as well, I will say this:
(Excluding all these fairy-tale unicorn babies we hear of) 4-5 months is just simply ROUGH, and I’m convinced there is very little in our control.
Pay attention to the nap schedule, take little steps now and then towards “independent” sleep, but most of the time, just figure out what is the most painless for you and works the quickest to get baby asleep, because most attempts at anything will likely fail at 5 months. Rescue sleep whatever way possible - chances are you will not undo any progress.
My first started sleeping through the night just randomly at about 12.5 months and everything was a complete mess up until that point.
My younger is 8 months now, and much better than if I compare to 4-5 months (which was absolute agony), but we still get annoying early mornings about half the time, and last nap is becoming a FIGHT, but switching to two naps creates chaos too. I’m holding out a little longer because so far he’s followed in his brother’s footsteps with sleep. But anyhow, just do what you gotta do.
Let ‘em cry, rock them, nurse, regress to old sleep crutches, break the nurse-to-sleep association, re-create it, do everything, and then do the opposite, and hopefully one day you’ll hit that random day where they just figure out how to sleep through.
After going through 4-5 months with my second as well, I will say this:
(Excluding all these fairy-tale unicorn babies we hear of) 4-5 months is just simply ROUGH, and I’m convinced there is very little in our control.
Pay attention to the nap schedule, take little steps now and then towards “independent” sleep, but most of the time, just figure out what is the most painless for you and works the quickest to get baby asleep, because most attempts at anything will likely fail at 5 months. Rescue sleep whatever way possible - chances are you will not undo any progress.
My first started sleeping through the night just randomly at about 12.5 months and everything was a complete mess up until that point.
My younger is 8 months now, and much better than if I compare to 4-5 months (which was absolute agony), but we still get annoying early mornings about half the time, and last nap is becoming a FIGHT, but switching to two naps creates chaos too. I’m holding out a little longer because so far he’s followed in his brother’s footsteps with sleep. But anyhow, just do what you gotta do.
Let ‘em cry, rock them, nurse, regress to old sleep crutches, break the nurse-to-sleep association, re-create it, do everything, and then do the opposite, and hopefully one day you’ll hit that random day where they just figure out how to sleep through.
@bobezeh It never feels like it will get better in the moment. However, you are not responsible for causing sleep problems though, please do not believe that. Certain sleep training methods work for some kids and don’t work for others. See it through as much as possible, but please don’t worry that changing your approach will ‘untrain’ them or something. That’s simply not true. They will slowly get better with consistency in routine, yes, but changing things up now and then because you are problem solving is not going to create any damage at all. It’s actually smart. Trying new things often leads to discovery. Try to be consistent with the things that work though. Sometimes resisting a little bit of protest can be effective, but within reason.
refinersfire
New member
@refinersfire Absolutely. Thank you for affirming that I can sleep train without crying it out
@john127 This is not the case for all kiddos. I used the time limit because 30-40 min was a cue to me that whatever strategy I was using would not work. My son is very predictable. If he’s not down by 30-40 min, he’ll continue for hours (I did commit and try it once, with no success). However, usually there is a strategy that will get him down within 15-20 min. So, at that point, the time limit tells me whatever I’m doing isn’t working for him tonight (often there is another issue like a cold or teething) so then I do a scene change and try something different to comfort him, usually try 1-2 alternate plans and one will work.
I think you really have to feel it out based on the child, but time limit was useful for us.
I think you really have to feel it out based on the child, but time limit was useful for us.
@john127 Yeah true. But I tried and it didn’t work. I had an initial instinct that it probably wouldn’t work either… my son is just how he is. I remember reaching out for advice about it, people telling me to just hold out longer, that it worked for them, and I pushed myself and my son too despite just having an instinct that told me the opposite… in the end I regretted wasting that time and stressing us both out. So, while it is definitely worth it to give it a try, all I’m saying is if OP has a feeling and feels that it might work better to assist to sleep, sometimes our gut feelings are correct.
@shane26 Glad that worked out for you but assisting to sleep is not working out for OP obviously, as they’re here on a sleep training sub looking for advice. Everyone has a gut feeling against hearing their LO cry, sometimes you make the tough decision to do so for safety, mental health and various other reasons!
@john127 I’ve used this sub and gotten great advice that has helped with sleep. I adjusted nap schedules, worked on techniques to ease off night nursing, to ease off rocking to sleep. “Sleep training” absolutely includes techniques to assist to sleep.
If you think this sub is simply CIO or nothing, then I firmly disagree. I’m not against trying CIO, and even did so with my son. Everyone’s experience is different, but for me, there were some people that offered advice and made me think that I needed to simply hold out and put up with at least 4+ hours of crying multiple nights in a row, which isn’t reasonable at all. If LO is having that difficult of time going down, it is MUCH more effective to look at that last wake window and adjust nap schedules. Also, after trying sleep training again with my second son, who took to it better initially at 4 months, we discovered that he could sleep independently after 30-40 min of crying but midnight wake ups happened even more frequently. We then switched back to assisting him to sleep, which was much quicker and easier, and he slept for longer stretches. So, for someone who was very open to trying and had no issue with letting LO cry (that’s not a problem for me), I found myself extremely frustrated because the advice I was getting simply wasn’t working. So, sometimes when other parents commented and told me about how their child was the exception and other methods might work, I found those comments extremely helpful and a huge relief. I’m just trying to offer that same perspective for OP now. OP said that they feel like their LO’s sleep issues are their fault, and I’ve been there. A lot of these sleep training “rules” and suggestions that “you’ll create a sleep crutch” or “make it worse” can really get to you psychologically, and for me it was completely unnecessary.
If you think this sub is simply CIO or nothing, then I firmly disagree. I’m not against trying CIO, and even did so with my son. Everyone’s experience is different, but for me, there were some people that offered advice and made me think that I needed to simply hold out and put up with at least 4+ hours of crying multiple nights in a row, which isn’t reasonable at all. If LO is having that difficult of time going down, it is MUCH more effective to look at that last wake window and adjust nap schedules. Also, after trying sleep training again with my second son, who took to it better initially at 4 months, we discovered that he could sleep independently after 30-40 min of crying but midnight wake ups happened even more frequently. We then switched back to assisting him to sleep, which was much quicker and easier, and he slept for longer stretches. So, for someone who was very open to trying and had no issue with letting LO cry (that’s not a problem for me), I found myself extremely frustrated because the advice I was getting simply wasn’t working. So, sometimes when other parents commented and told me about how their child was the exception and other methods might work, I found those comments extremely helpful and a huge relief. I’m just trying to offer that same perspective for OP now. OP said that they feel like their LO’s sleep issues are their fault, and I’ve been there. A lot of these sleep training “rules” and suggestions that “you’ll create a sleep crutch” or “make it worse” can really get to you psychologically, and for me it was completely unnecessary.
@bobezeh Also it isn’t your fault! Just like some babies are big and some are small, some are good sleepers and some aren’t. I was you, my baby was waking 6-10 times a night. I was a zombie. My SIL had a baby in March and she’s been sleeping through since 4 weeks. Our experiences are so polar opposite and it’s nothing she did that I didn’t do, just a different baby!
@bobezeh I did ivf to bring my baby into this world. My husband and I struggled with infertility caused by my endometriosis for over 6 years with many completely hopeless moments. I really believed that I would never have a child. You can imagine just how much I was overjoyed and grateful to finally have my son. He is absolutely everything to us.
Sleep deprivation is also no joke. I swore up and down that I would never sleep train because he's only so little once, this is just a phase, etc. Then I struggled from 4.5 to 7.5 months with the worst sleep of my life. I became someone I could not recognize and entered a cycle of rage and depression. I got diagnosed with PPD. Of course, I hated hearing him cry when we finally started sleep training. Of course, I questioned everything about myself as a mother. Of course, I thought I had failed when we had to move on to CIO. Then, within 3 nights all his false starts stopped, he started sleeping almost the whole night with just one wake up. And as if by magic, poof, my PPD was gone once I began getting more sleep and having time to recharge at night after he'd gone to sleep. I was finally able to be the mother I always envisioned I would be because I was no longer sleep deprived. Then we struggled with the 10 month regression and that night wake started becoming horrible again because we were cosleeping and he was not falling asleep for up to 1.5 hours. He's just 11 months now. Guess what the problem was? My refusal to do CIO on that night/early morning wake. I did everything else I could think of including asking advice here, misdiagnosing what I thought was going on, experimenting with different bed times, cap naps or not, got the huckleberry app, feed less or more at night time, slowly night wean, offer water, keep him completely in the dark even struggle through diaper changes in the dark, sing/don't sing, etc. Anything to avoid CIO. Sleep deprivation caught up with me again. Depression began to rear it's ugly head and I had to finally bite the bullet and just do CIO on that motn wake. It took just one night. He's now sleeping almost entirely through the night. I say almost because he's low sleep needs but I'll take what I can get. Guess what happened again? Poof, depression gone.
I just want to say also this depression is unlike anything I've experienced. I practice cognitive behaviour therapy, I can go for walks, I can talk to my incredibly supportive husband and my wonderfully supportive parents, I practice mindfulness and deep breathing, I can do everything and yet, sleep deprivation induced depression is just something else entirely.
My point here is:
1. You can be grateful for your baby and absolutely them be the light of your life and be a stay at home mom and still prioritize sleep. (I'm Canadian so I have great mat leave).
2. Prioritizing sleep is not just for you. It's for your baby too. This is one thing I didn't realize. I was thinking about sleep training as something for me hence the second guessing and doubts and thinking I was a terrible mother. But my son benefited from just sleeping straight through more than I could have possibly imagined.
3. Related to this, imagine your baby actually wants to sleep but through no fault of your own and with the very best of intentions you've inadvertently created sleep associations for them that are getting in the way of their sleep. At least, this is what I realized for my son.
4. You'll be surprised with what your baby is capable of when you commit to a method and apply it consistently.
5. Whatever you choose to do, ultimately it's up to you. Just know that some methods will get you to your goal quicker.
6. I think a lot of people just accept sleep deprivation and not being themselves almost to a fault. It doesn't have to be this way. Of course, it can be that way if that's what you choose. But it really, really does not have to be this way.
I will say that reading the SLIP chapter of the Precious Little Sleep book really helped my mindset going into doing CIO. I don't think I could have done it otherwise.
Anyway, good luck. It's hard work for sure!
Sleep deprivation is also no joke. I swore up and down that I would never sleep train because he's only so little once, this is just a phase, etc. Then I struggled from 4.5 to 7.5 months with the worst sleep of my life. I became someone I could not recognize and entered a cycle of rage and depression. I got diagnosed with PPD. Of course, I hated hearing him cry when we finally started sleep training. Of course, I questioned everything about myself as a mother. Of course, I thought I had failed when we had to move on to CIO. Then, within 3 nights all his false starts stopped, he started sleeping almost the whole night with just one wake up. And as if by magic, poof, my PPD was gone once I began getting more sleep and having time to recharge at night after he'd gone to sleep. I was finally able to be the mother I always envisioned I would be because I was no longer sleep deprived. Then we struggled with the 10 month regression and that night wake started becoming horrible again because we were cosleeping and he was not falling asleep for up to 1.5 hours. He's just 11 months now. Guess what the problem was? My refusal to do CIO on that night/early morning wake. I did everything else I could think of including asking advice here, misdiagnosing what I thought was going on, experimenting with different bed times, cap naps or not, got the huckleberry app, feed less or more at night time, slowly night wean, offer water, keep him completely in the dark even struggle through diaper changes in the dark, sing/don't sing, etc. Anything to avoid CIO. Sleep deprivation caught up with me again. Depression began to rear it's ugly head and I had to finally bite the bullet and just do CIO on that motn wake. It took just one night. He's now sleeping almost entirely through the night. I say almost because he's low sleep needs but I'll take what I can get. Guess what happened again? Poof, depression gone.
I just want to say also this depression is unlike anything I've experienced. I practice cognitive behaviour therapy, I can go for walks, I can talk to my incredibly supportive husband and my wonderfully supportive parents, I practice mindfulness and deep breathing, I can do everything and yet, sleep deprivation induced depression is just something else entirely.
My point here is:
1. You can be grateful for your baby and absolutely them be the light of your life and be a stay at home mom and still prioritize sleep. (I'm Canadian so I have great mat leave).
2. Prioritizing sleep is not just for you. It's for your baby too. This is one thing I didn't realize. I was thinking about sleep training as something for me hence the second guessing and doubts and thinking I was a terrible mother. But my son benefited from just sleeping straight through more than I could have possibly imagined.
3. Related to this, imagine your baby actually wants to sleep but through no fault of your own and with the very best of intentions you've inadvertently created sleep associations for them that are getting in the way of their sleep. At least, this is what I realized for my son.
4. You'll be surprised with what your baby is capable of when you commit to a method and apply it consistently.
5. Whatever you choose to do, ultimately it's up to you. Just know that some methods will get you to your goal quicker.
6. I think a lot of people just accept sleep deprivation and not being themselves almost to a fault. It doesn't have to be this way. Of course, it can be that way if that's what you choose. But it really, really does not have to be this way.
I will say that reading the SLIP chapter of the Precious Little Sleep book really helped my mindset going into doing CIO. I don't think I could have done it otherwise.
Anyway, good luck. It's hard work for sure!