Grammar and pronunciation in the second language

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focusedontheneedle

New member
My daughter is 5, the community language is Japanese, but she spoke English at home with me first. She started talking before she was one, and was speaking in full sentences by the time she was two. I thought she'd have no problems picking up English because she started talking so early, even though it's often said bilingual children start later.

Anyway, she started going to Japanese daycare full-time when she was 3, and since then, I don't feel like her English has improved a whole lot. She still has immature pronunciation, like difficulty pronouncing r and th, and a lisp when pronouncing s and z. She makes grammatical mistakes like forgetting the s at the end of third person verbs in present tense (He make cake) and getting the word order wrong when modifying nouns ("This is the I like thing" not "This is the thing I like.")

We were talking to an English speaking SLP online briefly last year. According to the SLP, her pronunciation issues are not uncommon for monolingual English speakers, and she might grow out of them, but it's better to work on it earlier rather than later. Also her grammar mistakes like leaving off the s could be her way of "correcting" her lisp. Word order mistakes could be influenced by Japanese word order. The SLP suggested weekly sessions to work on my daughter's issues, but my daughter had trouble focusing online and it was SO expensive.

Basically, I'm wondering what everyone here does to help their child learn grammar and pronunciation in their non-community language, when there is no local support from school or SLPs? When should I be concerned about language development? We are strictly OPOL and almost all books and media are in English.
 
@focusedontheneedle Check her speech pronunciation milestones here: https://childdevelopment.com.au/res...ent-charts/speech-sounds-developmental-chart/

The thing is, grammatical errors is going to happen. They're often probably translating between languages.

My son does the same thing (4). Our community language is English and I speak Mandarin to him. He sometimes will say stuff in Mandarin but with English word order. I just correct him and then ask him if he could repeat after me. Generally, I have found that eventually he will do it right. Takes some repetition. But problem is when he's at English daycare 4 days a week and then comes home to an English speaking dad, it's just unfortunately the normal thing where he's going to be more fluent in the majority language.

To me, it's just reinforcement and repetition.

This might be worth a read for you. https://bilingualmonkeys.com/how-many-hours-per-week-is-your-child-exposed-to-the-minority-language/

Though the author is the NON primary caregiver.

If her pronunciation is not according to the chart I've provided, look for a bilingual SLP.

My son was flagged by daycare age 3 that his speech clarity wasn't on par to his peers. So I found a bilingual SLP. She assessed both his English and Mandarin.

His pronunciation errors is consistent across both languages (except for sounds that exists in Mandarin only. There's more sounds in Mandarin than English).

I think someone who can evaluate her pronunciation holistically across the languages she knows will be more accurate.
 
@aldredian Yeah I used to just repeat what she said but in correct English, hoping she would passively pick up on the correct way, but recently I've started actively correcting her and having her repeat after me.

I'm the primary caregiver but I work full-time and my daughter is in Japanese daycare for about 9-10 hours a day. The rest of her waking time is almost all English, because my husband is hardly ever home. I have read that article and I think we are well over 25 hours a week, but I've never sat down and calculated it.

My daughter has problems with r and th which don't exist in Japanese, but her problems with her lisp carry over to Japanese I think. For example she pronounces tsu like chu.

I wish I could find an English/Japanese speaking SLP, but they are expensive and not available on weekends. I asked my daughter's daycare teacher for resources but he brushed me off, saying it's far too early to worry about her speech and normally they address speech problems in elementary school. Different approach here I guess.
 
@focusedontheneedle So with r and th, some of the speech pathologists I've spoken to say that it could even take a child all the way till age 7 for them to master. Particularly th sound.

The milestone linked above also said some immaturities for these 2 sounds between 5-6 years so you probably don't have to worry about it right now. Especially if the English SLP also told you the same.
 
@focusedontheneedle Tbh this all seems pretty normal. R and Th are difficult sounds, we also have rolled R, which my 4yo still struggles with.

Switching multiple times during the day is taxing even for adults. I find myself stumbling on weird sentence constructions when I go back home.

Other recurring errors in our family:
- Using other language sentence structure
- Using why instead of because (they are the same word in minority languageML)
- Making up words by using English and the correct ML grammatical ending
- verb endings (in both languages)
- wrong pronouns (mostly in English)

Could be interesting to note if some errors ease up when you are in an English environment for a prolonged time
 
@focusedontheneedle At 5 years old, r and th are often still developing. If her tongue is coming between her teeth for s and z, then that has usually resolved by 5.

If she has been exposed to English consistently since birth, I wouldn't expect to see language transfer errors. And if she is producing the s sound at the end of other grammatical markers (like possessives) then it's a load of nonsense about 3rd person verbs (in my 10+ years as an SLP, I've never seen that as a corrective error for a lisp, but I've seen it plenty of times as a grammatical error on a more complex structure.

It sounds like an evaluation by a different SLP would be beneficial. Ideally, one who is experienced in bilingual evaluations. That being said, you can prompt for the language errors at home in a gentle way "we say "he makes cake" can you try it?" And if she can copy an accurate th and/or r sound, you could have some success with those at home through some gentle prompting. If she cannot copy the sounds in words, you would be best getting support from an SLP - I've seen parents try to work on these sorts of sound errors at home and the child ends up with a distorted production thsts harder to fix.
 
@lostandinsecure Her tongue doesn't always come between her teeth. She has been conscious of her lisp since the SLP pointed it out, and she tries to correct it herself sometimes, but even when she keeps her tongue behind her teeth, it still sounds off. She can't really do r or th either, even when I prompt her.

She has been exposed to English since birth. It is the only language I speak with her and it was her first and strongest language until she started going to Japanese daycare full-time.

I think the SLP we were talking to was experienced in bilingual evaluations. She is bilingual herself, although not in Japanese. I found another online, English speaking but based in Japan, but the evaluation would cost 30,000 JPY ($200), even more expensive than the first SLP. It's not covered by insurance. I asked my daughter's daycare teacher what kind of local resources there are, if SLPs are available, but he said SLPs normally wouldn't work with children earlier than 1st grade here. He said he thinks her Japanese sounds completely normal for a kid her age, even though my husband has noticed pronunciation errors (Japanese tsu sound ends up like chu).
 
@focusedontheneedle You could try it.

I used to be an expat, so I understand some of the struggle. There are English speaking SLPs in most major international cities, but the cost is high because of skill set and high demand. The big international schools often have an SLP (that was my job when we were expat), but of course that is only for students.

I empathize with your situation, I really do. We moved home partly because of the medical needs of my children at the time.
 
@focusedontheneedle Hi! I’m an English speaker in Japan, also doing OPOL with my 1.5 year old. I am behind you in experience, but I have heard of these bumps in the road before for bilingual kids raised here. Solidarity, and I am interested in what others say!
 
@olivemcr Good luck! I think we have an advantage as moms teaching our kids English here.

Almost all kids I know or who I've taught at school here who have a Japanese mother and a foreign father, can't speak English, because their foreign fathers don't stick with OPOL. The kids get used to speaking Japanese with their mothers at home and with their friends at school, so the dads switch to Japanese to be able to talk with their own children. The only fluent speakers I've known or taught here have foreign moms.

I am definitely doing better than most international families I know here because at least my child will talk to me in English only!
 
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